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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Yeah. I don't consider taxes stealing. But you and I do not appear to have the same ideas about morality, which is fine. Funny thing to me is that most of my religious conservative family share your ideas about taxes when Jesus specifically said that we ought to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and at that time Caesar was doing a lot worse things than helping sick people. IMO. Different strokes.
    When taxes are going to pay for pre existing conditions people have frequently (but by no means always) have brought upon themselves, then yes, I do think it's stealing.

    Why should my income subsidize someone with type two diabetes who decides they'd like to eat themselves to death, but not pay the medical bill for it?

  2. #182
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Many times, people don't bring pre-existing conditions upon themselves.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    When taxes are going to pay for pre existing conditions people have frequently (but by no means always) have brought upon themselves, then yes, I do think it's stealing.

    Why should my income subsidize someone with type two diabetes who decides they'd like to eat themselves to death, but not pay the medical bill for it?
    Your income is already subsidizing the crappy food that's making them sick, that's why it's so cheap.

    You're already paying for their care. When their untreated conditions make them so sick that they go to the emergency room and are never able to pay their bill, your taxes are paying for that and your insurance premiums go up to pay for it. You're just getting very little value for your money.

    If they can get insurance and are required to pay what they can afford, they might at least contribute something and may get their conditions treated before they get so bad that they are unable to work.

    Or maybe we should no longer require emergency rooms to treat people who can't afford to pay?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  4. #184
    Temporal Mechanic. Lexicon's Avatar
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    Man, I'm pretty fortunate Uncle Sam foots my medical bill, actually. Thanks, taxpayers.
    If it weren't for you, I'd be missing a foot from a tumor, or dead from the resistant infection I've been battling for several years now. Both conditions rendered me unable to work/afford/qualify for private insurance. Without Medicaid, I never would've had access to a specialist who finally was able to help me fight off the illness that had led to facial disfigurement, blood poisoning, & repeat hospitalizations via the E.R.

    Not everyone "brings pre existing conditions on themselves." You oversimplify & invalidate what you don't fully understand, @DiscoBiscuit. It's certainly frustrating when people don't take proper care of themselves when it's within their power to do so (seemingly), but the issue you're talking about needs to be addressed on a macro scale from several angles at once, I think. Not simply dismissed & passed along.
    03/23 06:06:58 EcK: lex
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  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Your income is already subsidizing the crappy food that's making them sick, that's why it's so cheap.
    So it's the food's fault.

    That just like all those guns that go around killing people of their own volition.

    I wonder what its like to live in a world where no one has to deal with the consequences of their actions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexicon View Post
    Not everyone "brings pre existing conditions on themselves." You oversimplify & invalidate what you don't fully understand, @DiscoBiscuit. It's certainly frustrating when people don't take proper care of themselves when it's within their power to do so (seemingly), but the issue you're talking about needs to be addressed on a macro scale from several angles at once, I think. Not simply dismissed & passed along.
    I didn't oversimplify anything. I said specifically that lifestyle choice issues were not the whole picture.

    You misconstrued my point, which was to raise an issue that has as of yet gone unaddressed.

    I would much prefer a system like Singapores, which has national components acting within a framework market of system price controls.

    From the Wiki:

    Singapore has a non-modified universal healthcare system where the government ensures affordability of healthcare within the public health system, largely through a system of compulsory savings, subsidies and price controls. Singapore's system uses a combination of compulsory savings from payroll deductions to provide subsidies within a nationalized health insurance plan known as Medisave. Within Medisave, each citizen accumulates funds that are individually tracked, and such funds can be pooled within and across an entire extended family. The vast majority of Singapore citizens have substantial savings in this scheme. One of three levels of subsidy is chosen by the patient at the time of the healthcare episode.

    A key principle of Singapore's national health scheme is that no medical service is provided free of charge, regardless of the level of subsidy, even within the public healthcare system. This mechanism is intended to reduce the overutilisation of healthcare services, a phenomenon often seen in fully subsidised universal health insurance systems. Out-of-pocket charges vary considerably for each service and level of subsidy. At the highest level of subsidy, although each out-of-pocket expense is typically small, costs can accumulate and become substantial for patients and families.
    At the lowest level, the subsidy is in effect nonexistent, and patients are treated like private patients, even within the public system.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    So it's the food's fault.

    That just like all those guns that go around killing people of their own volition.

    I wonder what its like to live in a world where no one has to deal with the consequences of their actions.
    When you have very little money, you buy what's cheap and that often means low-nutrient, high-calorie food. It's not very satisfying, so you eat more of it to feel full. Do you think sick people are not experiencing the consequences of their actions? Do you think they wouldn't rather have access to good food, good education, fair wages, etc than be poor and sick? They are experiencing the consequences of not only their own actions, but the actions of those who refuse to pay their workers a living wage.

    But you are still paying for their medical care. I am, too. I'd prefer to get better value for my money. I'd rather subsidize healthy food and preventative care so that the people I'm paying for can have a better quality of life for the money I'm spending.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    When you have very little money, you buy what's cheap and that often means low-nutrient, high-calorie food. It's not very satisfying, so you eat more of it to feel full. Do you think sick people are not experiencing the consequences of their actions? Do you think they wouldn't rather have access to good food, good education, fair wages, etc than be poor and sick? They are experiencing the consequences of not only their own actions, but the actions of those who refuse to pay their workers a living wage.

    But you are still paying for their medical care. I am, too. I'd prefer to get better value for my money. I'd rather subsidize healthy food and preventative care so that the people I'm paying for can have a better quality of life for the money I'm spending.
    And I'd prefer a health care system that didn't exacerbate our current problems by making them bigger.

    The ACA locks in the perverse incentives (for insurers and medical providers) in our current system. The law was lobbied to great effect by the insurers, medical community, and a host of other interests.

    The only thing it does differently, as we've come to find out, is that it applies that broken system to people who were previously uninsured, making the problem larger than it already was.

    I'm down for healthcare reform, just not when it digs deeper into a hole we're already in.

  8. #188
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    So it's the food's fault.
    How is it small government to be in favor of agricultural subsidies? Unless I'm misunderstanding you here, this argument sounds like you are. Lots of government spending goes into rural America, too.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

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  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    And I'd prefer a health care system that didn't exacerbate our current problems by making them bigger.

    The ACA locks in the perverse incentives (for insurers and medical providers) in our current system. The law was lobbied to great effect by the insurers, medical community, and a host of other interests.

    The only thing it does differently, as we've come to find out, is that it applies that broken system to people who were previously uninsured, making the problem larger than it already was.

    I'm down for healthcare reform, just not when it digs deeper into a hole we're already in.
    Yeah. It's a sucky program. The only thing worse than ACA is what we had before.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Yeah. It's a sucky program.
    We agree here.

    The only thing worse than ACA is what we had before.
    I'm not sure that's true (and suspect its not), on what grounds do you say so?

    So far, the ACA has done a pretty excellent job of tripping over its own shoelaces.

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