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  1. #121
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    It's great that the U.S right-wing governments and their corporate cronies are teaching the average person the value of taking personal responsibility for his actions, but imagine the world we'd be living in if they did the same for all of their cronies. For example, the world we'd be living in if Ronald Reagan never enacted the Cable Communications Act of 1984 that released the media agencies from the responsibility to refrain from advertising excessively and to represent both sides of the contention fairly. What if, hypothetically, if our hospitals bore even the most superficial semblance to their more responsible counterparts in Australia or Germany. That is, if they were concerned with serving the public good rather than with maximizing profits for their chief business executives? Maybe then, all of our medical expenses would begin paying off and we'd have a health-care system where the fewest patients in the world die to due medical errors or insufficient provision of medical care.
    I agree to an extent about corporate greed, I just don't think it's the main issue here. As long as corporate greed plays into cronyism, then I'm against it. CEO's aren't concerned greatly about their personal reputations either, because they have a corporate logo to hide behind.

    The affects of gubmint, however, are far greater than anything these individuals can do. Governments start wars, although corporations may influence them. Armies kill people in great numbers, greater than in any time in human history. Governments started the huge bloodbaths of the 20th century, not businesses, no matter how influential they may have been. Government built the A-bomb, and then dropped it. And many times, when someone comes up with a useful invention to market, government finds a way to use it for purposes of mass destruction.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #122
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    And yet my religious conservative friend Richard takes a more literal nterpretation of the NT by gladly paying his income taxes every year, because Jesus said so.

    He also prays on the edge of his bed every night with his forehead on his clenched hands.

    He is against gay marriage and he is against allowing gays into his church.

    He is also one of the nicest people I have ever met.
    unless you happen to be gay of course

    He doesn't own any guns, he doesn't swear or drink (except a beer once in a while).

    Richard destroys all stereotypes of right-wing "extremists" by his very existence.
    sounds to me he fits the stereotype quite well, i.e. he follows his religious texts to the letter.
    goodness forbid he discovers a passage that says something akin to "kill the infidels", or comes across a charismatic preacher that claims such an interpretation of those holy texts
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  3. #123
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    What's a "libertard"?
    Some whose cognitive faculties has been retarded by libertarianism.

  4. #124
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    unless you happen to be gay of course
    Jesus ate with the lepers and spoke with the Pharisees. I can easily seem Him treating gay people with certain dignity. And...

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    sounds to me he fits the stereotype quite well, i.e. he follows his religious texts to the letter.
    goodness forbid he discovers a passage that says something akin to "kill the infidels", or comes across a charismatic preacher that claims such an interpretation of those holy texts
    If Richard followed the letter of the Law, and not the spirit of it, he would be constrained to follow Leviticus 20:13 -
    "If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense."

    Since he doesn't, I submit that he's following the laws of the US which apparently have been tempered by NT teachings, the ancient Greek philosophers, and Western European philosophy.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  5. #125
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Some whose cognitive faculties has been retarded by libertarianism.
    Was Ayn Rand a libertard?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #126
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Was Ayn Rand a libertard?
    Only a tard asks if water is wet or snow is white.

  7. #127
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Only a tard asks if water is wet or snow is white.
    Only a tard thinks Rand was a libertarian.
    "E.g., the Conservative Party, that subordinates reason to faith, and substitutes theocracy for capitalism; or the libertarian hippies, who subordinate reason to whims, and substitute anarchism for capitalism."
    The Ayn Rand Letter
    Vol. 1, No. 7 January 3, 1972
    "What Can One Do?"

    I highlighted the key terms because I know you don't like to read what I write but only what you like to think I wrote.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #128
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    It's great that the U.S right-wing governments and their corporate cronies
    http://washingtonexaminer.com/obamas...rticle/1064601

    "On the day Obama gave his "insourcing speech," North Carolina's Democratic Sen. Kay Hagan unveiled a $635 million direct loan from the Ex-Im to a Saudi power company that has agreed to buy gas and steam turbines from Siemens, which will make the turbines in Charlotte. Charlotte happens to be the site of the Democratic National Convention, and North Carolina happens to be the state Obama won by the smallest margin in 2012. If the Saudi company fails to repay the loan, Ex-Im pays Siemens, ultimately with the backing of U.S. taxpayers.

    Siemens is an ally of Obama administration on energy regulation, having lobbied, through the U.S. Climate Action Partnership, for mandatory caps on greenhouse gas emissions. David McIntosh, Siemens vice president for federal lobbying, is an alumnus of Obama's Environmental Protection Agency, as well as his presidential transition team. McIntosh is an Obama donor (he gets around Obama's "ban" on lobbyist donations by not being registered to lobby, meaning that Siemens' veep for federal lobbying supposedly spends less than 20 percent of his time on lobbying).

    Obama's subsidy-reliant industrial policy not only fosters cronyism and politicization, but it also opens the door for exploitation by the biggest corporations, who tend to have the biggest lobbying budgets. Consider Ex-Im's loan-guarantee portfolio. According to the agency's recent annual report, Ex-Im issued $10.2 billion in loan guarantees to benefit Boeing last year alone, which is 66.8 percent of all the agency's guarantees in that time period. Yes, more than two thirds of Ex-Im's guarantees benefited one company, and that doesn't even include Ex-Im's $700 million direct loan to the United Kingdom to subsidize a Boeing satellite sale. This is Boeing's standard share. The South Carolina standoff was just a lover's spat.

    Boeing Chief Executive Officer Jim McNerney chairs Obama's Export Council, and the nearly $200,000 Obama received from Boeing executives and employees in 2008 is easily the most any politician has ever raised from the jet maker."
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #129
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    CEO's aren't concerned greatly about their personal reputations either, because they have a corporate logo to hide behind.
    That makes it easier for them to perpetrate socially irresponsible behavior with impunity, does it not? At least some politicians can sometimes be held accountable for some of their actions some of the time, but that is virtually never true of CEOs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Governments start wars,
    Don't anthropomorphize, governments don't start wars, politicians operating them do. Marx argued that governments have no political interests of their own and they are fully subservient to the bourgeoisie, but that's an exaggeration. Politicians have interests of their own because they are members of the business aristocracy, there is no meaningful distinction between the government and the corporations because the people who control the private sector tend to make it to the public sector soon enough. In Who Rules America, William Domhoff has shown that government officials generally come from the most prosperous socioeconomic class in this country and there is no significant distinction between the interests of the top government officials and that of the private sector leaders (http://www.amazon.com/Rules-America-...o+runs+America).

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    although corporations may influence them.
    It is not that the leaders of corporations influence the leaders of the government, the two parties jointly govern the country with the expectation that they will reverse roles in the near future.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Armies kill people in great numbers, greater than in any time in human history.
    Would Augusto Pinochet have staged a coup d'etat if Salvador Allende did not deprive the U.S based transnational corporations from freely operating in Chile? Would the Videla Junta have waged 7 year long dirty war where 10,000-30,000 political dissidents perished if the U.S transnational corporations did not benefit from a capitalist regime that the military government promoted? Would Jorge Ubico who imposed a death penalty upon the "indolent" aboriginal coffee plantation workers have come to power if the Dwight Eisenhower administration was not preoccupied with the rise of "communism" in Guatemala? Did the U.S government's installation of the Shah of Iran had nothing to do with the interests of the Oil Companies whose economic liberties were compromised by Mohammed Mossadeq?



    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Governments started the huge bloodbaths of the 20th century,
    Governments started bloodbaths only because they gave the official orders to start them? The world is a little more complicated than that?


    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    no matter how influential they may have been.
    Oh, how influential businesses are matters a great deal, if they were much less influential, most of these wars would not have started, barring World War I and World War II and those were started by deviant governments, it is doubtful that most governments would have led the world down that path.



    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    http://washingtonexaminer.com/obamas...rticle/1064601

    "On the day Obama gave his "insourcing speech," North Carolina's Democratic Sen. Kay Hagan unveiled a $635 million direct loan from the Ex-Im to a Saudi power company that has agreed to buy gas and steam turbines from Siemens, which will make the turbines in Charlotte. Charlotte happens to be the site of the Democratic National Convention, and North Carolina happens to be the state Obama won by the smallest margin in 2012. If the Saudi company fails to repay the loan, Ex-Im pays Siemens, ultimately with the backing of U.S. taxpayers.

    Siemens is an ally of Obama administration on energy regulation, having lobbied, through the U.S. Climate Action Partnership, for mandatory caps on greenhouse gas emissions. David McIntosh, Siemens vice president for federal lobbying, is an alumnus of Obama's Environmental Protection Agency, as well as his presidential transition team. McIntosh is an Obama donor (he gets around Obama's "ban" on lobbyist donations by not being registered to lobby, meaning that Siemens' veep for federal lobbying supposedly spends less than 20 percent of his time on lobbying).

    Obama's subsidy-reliant industrial policy not only fosters cronyism and politicization, but it also opens the door for exploitation by the biggest corporations, who tend to have the biggest lobbying budgets. Consider Ex-Im's loan-guarantee portfolio. According to the agency's recent annual report, Ex-Im issued $10.2 billion in loan guarantees to benefit Boeing last year alone, which is 66.8 percent of all the agency's guarantees in that time period. Yes, more than two thirds of Ex-Im's guarantees benefited one company, and that doesn't even include Ex-Im's $700 million direct loan to the United Kingdom to subsidize a Boeing satellite sale. This is Boeing's standard share. The South Carolina standoff was just a lover's spat.

    Boeing Chief Executive Officer Jim McNerney chairs Obama's Export Council, and the nearly $200,000 Obama received from Boeing executives and employees in 2008 is easily the most any politician has ever raised from the jet maker."

    What's your point? That Obama is just an ordinary politician?

    According to Thomas Ferguson's "Golden Rule" (http://www.amazon.com/Rules-America-...o+runs+America), the politician who raises the most money for his election campaign wins in 94% of scenarios. Obama is just an ordinary politician, but he needs to preserve his image as a pro-Middle class and an anti-big business public figure, so in that sense his support for big businesses will be a little less blatant than that of the Republicans. The Republicans have always been clear about one thing "what's good for big businesses is good for everyone" and the Democrats are somewhat bashful about outright saying that. To be sure, Democrats are just as subservient to the interests of big businesses as the Republicans are, but they are more likely to be side-tracked by their impression management endeavors that are supposed to deceive the public about their political agenda.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  10. #130
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    The democrats are always going to have a problem in a country which is a fully signed up member of the plutonomy and that's exactly what Rand was in favour of, a neat like rich mans paradise like her beloved Russia under the Tsars before the commies kicked her out and appropriated her family's cash.

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