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  1. #111
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    So you advocate a "terrible" healthcare plan?
    HA

    HA.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #112
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    So you are in favor of free-loading (by opting out of insurance and later depending on the ER)? Or you prefer that those who can't afford urgent treatment die without care? Because those are pretty much the two options, unless you want to propose something intermediate (not that other options are impossible, but I haven't heard arguments for such)? If you don't want to let those who choose poorly die without care, how do you solve the free-loader problem?

    The individual mandate helps solves the freeloader problem. Usually conservatives are very concerned about freeloaders, so it's interesting to see where Republicans have landed on that aspect of the healthcare debate, after having argued the opposite previously.

    Still, I think the role that employers play in insurance is very arguable, as is the role of private insurers. Are you against the "pre-existing conditions are no bar to buying health insurance" aspect of Obamacare? How about the "insurers have to spend 80% on actual healthcare" aspect? How do you expect the free market to work when healthcare is currently tied to the employer, and not directly in the hands of individuals?

    Plus there's the problem that healthcare can be unexpectedly, catastrophically expensive. That's not the kind of problem that individuals are naturally good at assessing. Without some kind of artificial encouragement for participation, what would you like to happen to people who guess wrong and opt out when it turns out they shouldn't have? Plus, one needs a large pool of people that includes the relatively healthy for health insurance to work without being prohibitively expensive. How do you propose to keep the young and healthy involved, as more employers find ways to avoid providing health insurance over time?

  3. #113
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    So you are in favor of free-loading (by opting out of insurance and later depending on the ER)? Or you prefer that those who can't afford urgent treatment die without care? Because those are pretty much the two options, unless you want to propose something intermediate (not that other options are impossible, but I haven't heard arguments for such)? If you don't want to let those who choose poorly die without care, how do you solve the free-loader problem?

    The individual mandate helps solves the freeloader problem. Usually conservatives are very concerned about freeloaders, so it's interesting to see where Republicans have landed on that aspect of the healthcare debate, after having argued the opposite previously.

    Still, I think the role that employers play in insurance is very arguable, as is the role of private insurers. Are you against the "pre-existing conditions are no bar to buying health insurance" aspect of Obamacare? How about the "insurers have to spend 80% on actual healthcare" aspect? How do you expect the free market to work when healthcare is currently tied to the employer, and not directly in the hands of individuals?

    Plus there's the problem that healthcare can be unexpectedly, catastrophically expensive. That's not the kind of problem that individuals are naturally good at assessing. Without some kind of artificial encouragement for participation, what would you like to happen to people who guess wrong and opt out when it turns out they shouldn't have? Plus, one needs a large pool of people that includes the relatively healthy for health insurance to work without being prohibitively expensive. How do you propose to keep the young and healthy involved, as more employers find ways to avoid providing health insurance over time?
    Are you familiar with Milton Friedman's radical market-fundamentalism ideology? His spawns are market-anarchists who argue that even the infrastructure of the institutions of law and order should be determined entirely by the market. Maybe once you accept the principles of market-anarchism, the basis of Mal's arguments will seem much clearer?
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  4. #114
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    You better!
    We could go see the Hadron Collider! And I could demonstrate my lack of knowledge.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  5. #115
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    @Mal+ you have started two threads to talk about the exact same issue. That is not ok.

    I'm going to merge the threads, even though this might make things a bit confusing, since it's better than having two identical threads or deleting one. Please don't do this again.
    ISTJ.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #116
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    ha, I wish. Then I might actually get things done once in a while.
    -end of thread-

  7. #117
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    So you are in favor of free-loading (by opting out of insurance and later depending on the ER)? Or you prefer that those who can't afford urgent treatment die without care? Because those are pretty much the two options, unless you want to propose something intermediate (not that other options are impossible, but I haven't heard arguments for such)? If you don't want to let those who choose poorly die without care, how do you solve the free-loader problem?

    The individual mandate helps solves the freeloader problem. Usually conservatives are very concerned about freeloaders, so it's interesting to see where Republicans have landed on that aspect of the healthcare debate, after having argued the opposite previously.

    Still, I think the role that employers play in insurance is very arguable, as is the role of private insurers. Are you against the "pre-existing conditions are no bar to buying health insurance" aspect of Obamacare? How about the "insurers have to spend 80% on actual healthcare" aspect? How do you expect the free market to work when healthcare is currently tied to the employer, and not directly in the hands of individuals?

    Plus there's the problem that healthcare can be unexpectedly, catastrophically expensive. That's not the kind of problem that individuals are naturally good at assessing. Without some kind of artificial encouragement for participation, what would you like to happen to people who guess wrong and opt out when it turns out they shouldn't have? Plus, one needs a large pool of people that includes the relatively healthy for health insurance to work without being prohibitively expensive. How do you propose to keep the young and healthy involved, as more employers find ways to avoid providing health insurance over time?
    Thanks for not responding with ad hominem, as certain others do here. I haven't stated a single anarchist position on this thread, and in fact, if anybody cares to read what I write and not try to "read between the lines" for suspicious EEEEVILL motives, I have been calling for a return to the methods of my childhood. Those were not anarchist days, there was simply a lot less gubmint interference, thus less chaos in the market and less inflation in the medical field. It was a time when insurance companies were fair to their customers because they weren't always looking over their shoulders to see what law or regulation the gubmint was going to pass next.

    I haven't called for a strictly free market, only for a cheaper market for insurance. ACA is not affordable. The old system was affordable.

    As for your reasoned, rational response, I haven't favored a system that supports free-loaders who opted out. Gubmint-driven inflation in the medical realm has helped create a system of free-loaders by making insurance unaffordable. As I argued above, this has already driven up medical costs because hospitals and clinics also have to pay various forms of insurance, and these costs are, as others have pointed out, passed down to the consumer.

    To be in favor of deregulation is not to be a "free-market anarchist" or any other political pundit. It is based only in my desire to be free of the added financial burden placed upon me and my family by excessive regulations and a burgeoning bureaucracy.

    As others have stated, nothing comes free. Of course it isn't free. But the individual free-loaders of society are not the issue here. Gubmint programs and bureaucratic structures are extremely expensive to maintain, and they always get more expensive over time as they are not profit-driven. They have also shown themselves to be highly abused systems which make free-loaders out of politicians who take from the system to pay for their own political schemes and cronyism, and pay it back with IOUs. The gubmint also makes free-loaders out of hospitals, who are always struggling to survive financially, but due to the rising cost of doing business in a highly-regulated, gubmint-driven economy are forced to cheat the system in order to get by, mainly through defrauding gubmint systems such as Medicare.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #118
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    who are always struggling to survive financially, but due to the rising cost of doing business in a highly-regulated, gubmint-driven economy are forced to cheat the system in order to get by, mainly through defrauding gubmint systems such as Medicare.
    I am sure they are struggling to survive when an average surgeon pulls in two or three times the income of his colleague in Australia or Germany and it's rather common for the Administrators of Hospitals to pull in a seven figure income. Why is it that hospitals of other developed nations don't charge their patients a million dollars for life-saving procedures and somehow aren't struggling to survive?
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  9. #119
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    I am sure they are struggling to survive when an average surgeon pulls in two or three times the income of his colleague in Australia or Germany and it's rather common for the Administrators of Hospitals to pull in a seven figure income. Why is it that hospitals of other developed nations don't charge their patients a million dollars for life-saving procedures and somehow aren't struggling to survive?
    I don't know. Please tell me the secret.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #120
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    I don't know. Please tell me the secret.
    It's great that the U.S right-wing governments and their corporate cronies are teaching the average person the value of taking personal responsibility for his actions, but imagine the world we'd be living in if they did the same for all of their cronies. For example, the world we'd be living in if Ronald Reagan never enacted the Cable Communications Act of 1984 that released the media agencies from the responsibility to refrain from advertising excessively and to represent both sides of the contention fairly. What if, hypothetically, if our hospitals bore even the most superficial semblance to their more responsible counterparts in Australia or Germany. That is, if they were concerned with serving the public good rather than with maximizing profits for their chief business executives? Maybe then, all of our medical expenses would begin paying off and we'd have a health-care system where the fewest patients in the world die to due medical errors or insufficient provision of medical care.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

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