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  1. #91
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    But who's going without healthcare in this country? As it is right now, any indigent person can walk into an ER, get free medical service, and leave without ever having to pay a dime.
    I see you're an advocate for the Mitt Romney healthcare plan. Do you have any idea how an ER actually works and why this is a terrible idea?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #92
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Even rich people in Congress fear the added tax burden of Obamacare:
    http://hotair.com/archives/2013/08/0...-helping-hand/
    " Lawmakers and staff can breathe easy — their health care tab is not going to soar next year.

    The Office of Personnel Management, under heavy pressure from Capitol Hill, will issue a ruling that says the government can continue to make a contribution to the health care premiums of members of Congress and their aides, according to several Hill sources. …

    Just Wednesday, POLITICO reported that President Barack Obama told Democratic senators that he was personally involved in finding a solution. …

    Obama’s involvement in solving this impasse was unusual, to say the least. But it came after serious griping from both sides of the aisle about the potential of a “brain drain.” The fear, as told by sources in both parties, was that aides would head for more lucrative jobs, spooked by the potential for spiking health premiums."

    If Congress can't afford "affordable health care," then how is the average taxpayer supposed to afford it?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  3. #93
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    http://news.investors.com/politics/0...re-mandate.htm
    Local Governments Reeling Under ObamaCare Costs

    'When Regal Entertainment Group (RGC) in April blamed ObamaCare for the fact that it was cutting some of its workers' hours, backers of the law mounted a furious backlash against the theater chain, among other things filling its Facebook page with boycott threats. "Greed and selfishness make me sick," one of them said.'

    Read More At Investor's Business Daily: http://news.investors.com/politics/0...#ixzz2bCSrqDJq
    Follow us: @IBDinvestors on Twitter | InvestorsBusinessDaily on Facebook

    So the best they can do is hurl epithets about "greed" at businesses trying to survive during a recession period under the burden of new, expensive, Draconian laws designed to help the "uninsured."

    Obey Obama - or you will be penalized.

    Where's the greed? Is it about money, or political power?
    Will you keep posting about this when you're fully resident in switzerland?

    Still not as big a deal as the patriot act. No one complained about it. This response seems vitrolic and extreme, "obey obama or be penalized?" for how long now has the right wing been unsuccessfully trying to portray Obama as something out of a cheap fiction clone of Orwell's 1984? The only result of this is to turn people of and they become unwilling to even begin to take you seriously.

    Also that seems like a very, very class war feature piece, this investors business daily therefore I'm likely to dismiss as a mouthpiece for rich guys similar to the daily worker or red star used to be for commies. Not a lot going on in the world of business and investment if staw poll and social media soundings of public opinion are its reportage.

  4. #94
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Will you keep posting about this when you're fully resident in switzerland?

    Still not as big a deal as the patriot act. No one complained about it. This response seems vitrolic and extreme, "obey obama or be penalized?" for how long now has the right wing been unsuccessfully trying to portray Obama as something out of a cheap fiction clone of Orwell's 1984? The only result of this is to turn people of and they become unwilling to even begin to take you seriously.

    Also that seems like a very, very class war feature piece, this investors business daily therefore I'm likely to dismiss as a mouthpiece for rich guys similar to the daily worker or red star used to be for commies. Not a lot going on in the world of business and investment if staw poll and social media soundings of public opinion are its reportage.
    Why make it about class war all the time? Why is it always about politics with you? Consider the facts that I have presented. Those individuals and states that bail out of Obamacare ARE penalized, directly, through individual fines or by withdrawing state grants.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  5. #95
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Excluding my uninsured wife, who will be denied better access to healthcare due to a pre-existing health condition and her lifestyle.



    But who's going without healthcare in this country? As it is right now, any indigent person can walk into an ER, get free medical service, and leave without ever having to pay a dime.
    So your wife will have worse access to healthcare or will it just cost more? And are you really unable to pay it or do you just resent having to?

    The ER argument is so stupid. I'm sorry. The ER is crazy expensive and the cost gets passed on to everyone. If there is a less cost-effective way to provide medical care, I don't know what it is. And the care is crap. Yes, if they think they will get sued if they don't do something, they will do it, but that is all they will do for most people. If it's not an easy fix and you don't look in immediate danger of keeling over, they will give you (addictive) opiates and send you right back out the door with instructions to see your regular physician for follow up, which you can't very well do if you don't have one. If you have a non-life threatening chronic condition it's not going to be much help and you won't get preventative care.

    If it was really so great, would you not just pay the fine and rely on the ER for your wife's care?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
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  6. #96
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Even rich people in Congress fear the added tax burden of Obamacare:
    http://hotair.com/archives/2013/08/0...-helping-hand/
    " Lawmakers and staff can breathe easy — their health care tab is not going to soar next year.

    The Office of Personnel Management, under heavy pressure from Capitol Hill, will issue a ruling that says the government can continue to make a contribution to the health care premiums of members of Congress and their aides, according to several Hill sources. …

    Just Wednesday, POLITICO reported that President Barack Obama told Democratic senators that he was personally involved in finding a solution. …

    Obama’s involvement in solving this impasse was unusual, to say the least. But it came after serious griping from both sides of the aisle about the potential of a “brain drain.” The fear, as told by sources in both parties, was that aides would head for more lucrative jobs, spooked by the potential for spiking health premiums."

    If Congress can't afford "affordable health care," then how is the average taxpayer supposed to afford it?
    The rich dont like taxes?!

    When did this serious breaking news arrive?

  7. #97
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Why make it about class war all the time? Why is it always about politics with you? Consider the facts that I have presented. Those individuals and states that bail out of Obamacare ARE penalized, directly, through individual fines or by withdrawing state grants.
    Class war transcends politics and its blatantly obvious, painfully obvious even, considering the facts as presented how could it be about anything other than that? Seriously, the myopia of most libertards for this kind of thing is beginning to really grate on me.

  8. #98
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    So your wife will have worse access to healthcare or will it just cost more? And are you really unable to pay it or do you just resent having to?

    The ER argument is so stupid. I'm sorry. The ER is crazy expensive and the cost gets passed on to everyone. If here is a less cost-effective way to provide medical care, I don't know what it is. And the care is crap. Yes, if they think they will get sued if they don't do something, they will do it, but that is all they will do for most people. If it's not an easy fix and you don't look in immediate danger of keeling over, they will give you (addictive) opiates and send you right back out the door with instructions to see your regular physician for follow up, which you can't very well do if you don't have one. If you have a non-life threatening chronic condition it's not going to be much help and you won't get preventative care.

    If it was really so great, would you not just pay the fine and rely on the ER for your wife's care?
    The managerialism which I think is among the most insidious and threatening to public services and the charitable sector in the UK wouldnt see much wrong with that service culture and practice right there, its part of what I think is wrong with the continued "marketisation" of services in the UK, although there's a wider cultural factor too with the whole litigatious society thing which does have a significant impact upon socialised medicine.

    There is the pressure therefore from one side, managerialism, to pay escalating boardroom wage deals, benefits, pensions on the basis of comparisons with executives in the city or other similarly unrestricted and self-determined wage structures, which is a total resource drain leading to bosses finding new and innovative ways of proclaiming "no service" to be the "cutting edge in new service delivery", ie we've closed all the care facilities to lower the incidence of hospital or care facility acquired infections.

    At the other end of the scale, the service end, for wider cultural factors the population of service users who place the greatest demands upon public services, such as those who make up the "frequent attenders lists" in A&E (its the UK version of ER) or GP practices, are also those most likely to engage with claim cultures promoted for fiscal reasons by law firms, there have been interesting cases in the UK of individuals recklessly endangering themselves or loved ones, enjoying hospital stays and giving ward staff complete and utter headaches because they are acting in a manner liable to result in injury in order to make claims. A lot of these populations are those which hark from so called "workless" communities, which in and off itself is no big deal I would argue, work isnt the only source of secondary (non-family) socialisation were you learn personal responsibility etc. but identifying avenues for acquiring money, by any means, are a feature of the community culture.

    So those ARE pressures on the public services and externalities to any non-private service, although I think there's a public choice question here, are the freeloader problems, and I think these are in the same order but not exactly the same as that, so great that you do without any service or are they something which is undesirable not not sufficient in and off themselves to decide to nix any potential benefit?

    The wider social and cultural contexts of these things are important, not much discussed though or perhaps that's just my perception.

  9. #99
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I see you're an advocate for the Mitt Romney healthcare plan. Do you have any idea how an ER actually works and why this is a terrible idea?
    I know nothing about Romney's healthcare plan, but I believe you when you say it's terrible.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #100
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    The fact that Congress has exempted itself from the ACA is unsurprising.

    If it were me, I would make implementation contingent on Congress having to use it.

    If you're gonna make the bed, you damn well better sleep in it.

    The real question with this whole thing is whether the young invincibles (many of whom are uninsured) decide to pay the the $95 dollar fine, or the $2000 for aca coverage.

    The ACA's success is dependent on whether young people buy in. I wouldn't get my hopes up.

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