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  1. #1
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Default Pope Francis on homosexuals: "Who am I to judge?"

    “If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?” Francis told reporters...

    ...

    Francis’s words could not have been more different from those of Benedict XVI, who in 2005 wrote that homosexuality was “a strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil,” and an “objective disorder.” The church document said men with “deep-seated homosexual tendencies” should not become priests.

    ...

    Vatican experts were quick to point out that Francis was not suggesting that the priests or anyone else should act on their homosexual tendencies, which the church considers a sin. But the fact that he made such comments — and used the word “gay” — was nevertheless revolutionary, and likely to generate significant discussion in local dioceses, where bishops are divided over whether to accept priests who are gay but celibate.


    ...


    Francis also told reporters that while Pope John Paul II had definitively closed the door to female priests, he sought a “theology of women” and a greater role for them in Catholic life, news reports said.

    ...
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/30/wo...20130729&_r=1&

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  2. #2
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    This is clearly a step in the right direction. I wonder what goes on behind the scenes, though. Is this guy really in charge? Or is he just a figurehead put in place as part of a new PR strategy?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    This is clearly a step in the right direction. I wonder what goes on behind the scenes, though. Is this guy really in charge? Or is he just a figurehead put in place as part of a new PR strategy?
    It doesn't change anything, except maybe letting gay priests still be priests.

    The gay priests are expected to be celibate, so their sexuality doesn't even matter.
    And the church position on homosexuality, gay marriage, etc., is not changing.

    Prior popes have said such things as well, it's just that today it's a hot button issue.

    Even personal convictions of the Pope aside, it's a matter of practicality : He doesn't want to be distracted or absorbed by all the "gay this and that" fuss, he's got more important things to focus on.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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    Ratchet Ass Moon Fairy Comeback Girl's Avatar
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    I'm not a catholic, but I like this pope for doing this. I mean, we mustn't forget that the pope has a lot of influence. Being more gay-friendly and not spreading hate speech about gays might change the minds of I don't know how many catholics all around the world about homosexuality. This could improve the situations of many homosexuals. Sure, he didn't say he doesn't think gay sex isn't a sin anymore, but it's a change of tone that can make the lives of thousands if not millions of people so much better. I like that.
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  5. #5
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comeback Girl View Post
    I'm not a catholic, but I like this pope for doing this. I mean, we mustn't forget that the pope has a lot of influence. Being more gay-friendly and not spreading hate speech about gays might change the minds of I don't know how many catholics all around the world about homosexuality. This could improve the situations of many homosexuals. Sure, he didn't say he doesn't think gay sex isn't a sin anymore, but it's a change of tone that can make the lives of thousands if not millions of people so much better. I like that.
    Well, I do agree that if there's a choice between the typical garbage the hardliners say vs this kind of approach, this kind of approach is the better option of the two.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #6
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    It doesn't change anything, except maybe letting gay priests still be priests.

    The gay priests are expected to be celibate, so their sexuality doesn't even matter.
    And the church position on homosexuality, gay marriage, etc., is not changing.

    Prior popes have said such things as well, it's just that today it's a hot button issue.

    Even personal convictions of the Pope aside, it's a matter of practicality : He doesn't want to be distracted or absorbed by all the "gay this and that" fuss, he's got more important things to focus on.
    I agree that it's not a change in policy, but it is a change in rhetoric from the last Pope. It's nice to see someone in a position of power ratcheting down the rhetoric for once. Francis also recently made a comment about how atheists can get to heaven through good works. A cardinal spoke up and said that was not Church doctrine on that issue. So this isn't the first time the new guy has spoken out like this. That's why I'm curious about what's going on behind the scenes. It's strange for me to have a (relatively) favorable view of a Pope for once.

    I believe the Church will eventually change its position on homosexuality and gay marriage, just as it changed its position on women's suffrage in the past. Public opinion will force the Church's hand. The last thing the Church wants is to lose its influence in the Western world. That's even more important than doctrine. We may still be several decades away from seeing that, but it is inevitable.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #7
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I believe the Church will eventually change its position on homosexuality and gay marriage, just as it changed its position on women's suffrage in the past. Public opinion will force the Church's hand. The last thing the Church wants is to lose its influence in the Western world. That's even more important than doctrine. We may still be several decades away from seeing that, but it is inevitable.
    During the previous papacy, the Catholic Church seemed to have driven away alot of people, theres no saying that another pope wont come along in the future after this one and drive alot of people away with hateful rhetoric again, I guess they should be progressing, which doesnt mean they will though, many of the conservative types would like a so called "smaller, 'purer' church".

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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I agree that it's not a change in policy, but it is a change in rhetoric from the last Pope. It's nice to see someone in a position of power ratcheting down the rhetoric for once. Francis also recently made a comment about how atheists can get to heaven through good works. A cardinal spoke up and said that was not Church doctrine on that issue. So this isn't the first time the new guy has spoken out like this. That's why I'm curious about what's going on behind the scenes. It's strange for me to have a (relatively) favorable view of a Pope for once.
    I was wondering a lot about what happened to result in the election of Benedict -- and then result in the stepping DOWN of Benedict (which is almost unheard of) and the selection of this new pope Francis.

    Benedict was kind of a surprise choice because he was such a hardline traditionalist compared to the prior pope, and it seemed to signal a traditional shift in the Vatican. And now... Francis... who is saying THESE things? How did that whole dynamic work, what was going on behind the scenes? I'm really curious.

    I believe the Church will eventually change its position on homosexuality and gay marriage, just as it changed its position on women's suffrage in the past. Public opinion will force the Church's hand. The last thing the Church wants is to lose its influence in the Western world. That's even more important than doctrine. We may still be several decades away from seeing that, but it is inevitable.
    I have no idea, honestly. I mean, I understand about the importance of maintaining a hold on the Western world, but I'm so used to dealing with Protestants and Evangelicals who would essentially prefer to be mowed down and left to die on the hill of their choosing than surrender and give into the cultural values that they disagree with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    During the previous papacy, the Catholic Church seemed to have driven away alot of people, theres no saying that another pope wont come along in the future after this one and drive alot of people away with hateful rhetoric again, I guess they should be progressing, which doesnt mean they will though, many of the conservative types would like a so called "smaller, 'purer' church".
    Yep, that's another issue here: The conservative churches I am used to just view this as a "winnowing" process where the chaff is separated from the wheat. They don't mind being a minority, if they are the "pure" ones and it keeps the faith pure. They've already incorporated this kind of process into their worldview. God is testing them; they must remain faithful. The rest of the world, alas, has chosen to go to hell.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?” Francis told reporters...

  10. #10

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    Yes, I've seen that.

    It contrasts with the much or clear perspective taken by Jewish authorities, I read a dialogue between Francis and one called Heaven and Earth, it was clearly his view in that book.

    The RCC, it would appear, has gotten itself into a very serious fix, one from which I dont know if it will be able to save itself, with the previous Pope leaving office because he felt he did not have the personal strength to face the challenges which were emerging in his office, this a thing unheard of in history and as serious and important to any believer as the reformation was accompanied by stories of a "gay conspiracy", of corrupt individuals seeking to use their inclusion in an organised and self-interested group seeking self-aggrandisement and ascendency.

    When instituted I dont believe that the authorities who were responsible for the rules within the church of celibacy among the religious could have foreseen that it would lead to the church hierarchy being populated and probably biased seriously in favour of homosexuals.

    About fifthteen years ago I recall reading articles from apologists seeking to clarify that homosexuality itself, the orientation, was not sinful but only homosexual acts, just over ten years ago I knew a number of Jesuits who subsequently have all left their religious calling, which I have no reason what so ever to believe was not a true calling, to be married and have children because they were heterosexual, spokespersons for the Irish church have made statements in no uncertain terms that if this does not change the Church in Ireland is done.

    With respect to all this I dont imagine that any of the homosexual faction within the Church would favour any sort of change to the traditionalism which includes celibacy, the prohibitions on cohabitation, marriage or family life which are at this point just a prohibition against heterosexuality. I also dont believe that this faction will be that worried about the shrinkage of the Church either because it means a smaller population of religious for the resources of the Church to go around.

    I know this is all going to be dismissed by the liberal majority of this forum as homophobia, and that anyone who isnt a fan of homosexuality becoming more commonplace and possibly normative doesnt have a place in the future but these developments really sadden me.

    I'm beginning to give up hope of future generations being able to benefit from any of the norms or institutions which I took for granted growing up, they're going to have a more confused, stressed the fuck out world to inherit and I doubt they'll have much in common with the generations taking a exit and leaving them to it.

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