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  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ponyboy View Post
    I will say right up front that I'm not religious and am in no way trying rile anyone up but to ask an honest question...It seems that this would help bring in new members by being accepting of more people. Or is it more important to stand by long-held beliefs whether they alienate people or not?
    Religion and truth is not a popularity contest.

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    You mean the families of the men who had gone to war in the crusades? Thats a theory, but didnt women and even children fight in the crusades? I always thought that celibacy was a much older concept than that though, already in the third century alot of women decided to remain virgins, which is probably the origin of celibacy as far as I know. I dont wanna get too off topic here and turn this into a historical discussion, but looking into the roots of what causes alot of these traditons to exist is still on topic, I guess, since this thread is about the RCC's traditions.
    Perhaps they did, children and women fight I mean, although they would not have been enlisted in the main fighting forces, ie the orders of priestly knighthood or military orders of the church, and the rules of celibacy were often cited and enforced to ensure that the duties of care to dependents were limited.

    The associations between spirituality and celibacy are older, the exist in just about all traditions, with the possible exception of buddhism and hinduism, although it is practiced widespreadly in buddhism though. Within the Jewish tradition there was a positive sanction the other way, believers, as I understand it from some sources, are obligated to have families and ensure immortality or transcendence in at least one way, but Pauline teaching is pretty different, he innovated many changes to distinguish Christianity from Jewish traditionalism and recommending celibacy or at least an exclusively spiritual and non-physical, non-temporal life.

  3. #43
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    The Catholic Church started the tradition of celibacy so that the priests would have no heirs. That way, when they died all of their property would pass to the Church. All of this nonsense about celibacy being important to spirituality is nothing more than justification after the fact.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #44
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    Where in scripture does it speak of celibate priests and female priests?
    I don't know the theological justifications behind it, I was never Catholic, and the religious tradition I grew up in (I'm agnostic) emphasized a doctrine of the "priesthood of all believers". Again, my point is simply that they haven't made other changes more salient to modern challenges, and the most logical reason is that this is due to strong belief, whatever the origin of that belief may be.

  5. #45
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Well, at first it seemed to be a prohibition against marriage, in a sense because the priest was already married to God -- so once you were a priest, you could not marry. The thing is that since sex was only permitted within marriage, then priests were also expected to be celibate. (And maybe that gives an indication of the RC view towards homosexuality, in that if you can't marry a same-sex partner, you can't rightfully have sex with them either.)

    However, in 306 the Council of Elvira specifically created ordinances about even married priests, if they had married before becoming priests -- about remaining chaste and not producing children. The way it was stated was a little vague, and a century later, a clearer prohibition against sex with one's wife and against having children was issued by Carthage, basically again on the issue of being simple and chaste before God so that God might hear their supplications. There was an appeal to the position of the Apostles (which actually still is debated today) + traditional practices. Sex was treated as a distraction from purity of mind and soul.

    And so it went.

    Lateralus' comment could dovetail nicely with that.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #46
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I guess I meant in theory, but you are probably right because issues regarding gender and sexuality are so much more personal and imbedded in the culture. I don't know the process by which it could change.
    Oh. Oh, yes, theoretically it should be easier... but the way our culture is? We're just very hung up on those particular things.

    I guess my main point is that I get impatient when religions use their ties to scripture as the absolute authority to prove a point, when history shows that people only use sacred writings as a reference and tradition is a much more powerful force. The entire structure of RCC, or most any other church is not based on scripture. "On this rock I will build my church" is not a clear condition for setting up a continual office of the pope. It is true that the Jews had a system of priests, but Christianity has reinterpreted that quite a bit as well from what I understand. Scripture is not the reason that the church rejects homosexuality.
    Yes, there's a lot of "interpretation" that happens along the way -- my last post, I mentioned the timeline for when it was determined that priests should be celibate, and it was mostly people looking back a few hundred years after the fact and deciding to pick certain aspects of Jesus and the disciplines to highlight (or words of Paul), while ignoring the truths about how some of them were married, etc.

    As another example, dispensationalism did not really rise until sometime in the 1800's. There are various movements in the church that can come to dominate certain sects and are treated as if "they've always been that way" but are actually fairly recent approaches.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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