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  1. #31
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    The church has demonstrated authority over scripture, and has made a few alterations to the ten commandments, and the literal interpretation of creation. Why not see gender roles and sexual orientation in scripture as being contextual? That seems a lot easier than letting go of a literal interpretation of the creation week or altering two of the ten commandments
    On the contrary, I see it as even more difficult. I'm not sure why people are thinking it would be a "simple" alteration.

    I think in the US, though, there's being a big shift with Gen Y and younger, in terms of gay acceptance. I'm not sure if that carries through in other countries, including ones where Catholic power is consolidated.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #32
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    On the contrary, I see it as even more difficult. I'm not sure why people are thinking it would be a "simple" alteration.

    I think in the US, though, there's being a big shift with Gen Y and younger, in terms of gay acceptance. I'm not sure if that carries through in other countries, including ones where Catholic power is consolidated.
    I guess I meant in theory, but you are probably right because issues regarding gender and sexuality are so much more personal and imbedded in the culture. I don't know the process by which it could change.

    I guess my main point is that I get impatient when religions use their ties to scripture as the absolute authority to prove a point, when history shows that people only use sacred writings as a reference and tradition is a much more powerful force. The entire structure of RCC, or most any other church is not based on scripture. "On this rock I will build my church" is not a clear condition for setting up a continual office of the pope. It is true that the Jews had a system of priests, but Christianity has reinterpreted that quite a bit as well from what I understand. Scripture is not the reason that the church rejects homosexuality.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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  3. #33
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    The church has demonstrated authority over scripture, and has made a few alterations to the ten commandments, and the literal interpretation of creation. Why not see gender roles and sexual orientation in scripture as being contextual?
    Simply because they haven't at this point, despite a growing shortage of priests, the potential alienation of half the population, and the potential alienation of a substantial majority of the world's adult population (when the last two groups are added together). My point was they're not going to compromise on something that only directly affects somewhere between 2-4% of the global population if they won't compromise on those other points. I'm assuming this is due to reasons of sincerely and strongly held belief about what they perceive as the will of God, and any changes will come due to changes in that area (no doubt affected by external pressures on their subconscious processes), if such changes come at all.

  4. #34
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    There is nothing there that changes long-standing interpretation of Scripture; if they're not going to compromise their beliefs regarding celibate Priests, female Priests, or divorce for the sake of popularity and influence, they're certainly not going to compromise their stance on homosexual relations. Its an apparent recognition that sexual preference is, broadly speaking, not a choice, and perhaps a reaffirmation of a "hate the sin, love the sinner" policy in general......nothing more.
    Where in scripture does it speak of celibate priests and female priests?

  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I guess I meant in theory, but you are probably right because issues regarding gender and sexuality are so much more personal and imbedded in the culture. I don't know the process by which it could change.

    I guess my main point is that I get impatient when religions use their ties to scripture as the absolute authority to prove a point, when history shows that people only use sacred writings as a reference and tradition is a much more powerful force. The entire structure of RCC, or most any other church is not based on scripture. "On this rock I will build my church" is not a clear condition for setting up a continual office of the pope. It is true that the Jews had a system of priests, but Christianity has reinterpreted that quite a bit as well from what I understand. Scripture is not the reason that the church rejects homosexuality.
    I am unsure whether scripture is the reason or not, there are references to homosexuality in the old testament which reflect a much earlier, and in some contexts persisting, understanding of what homosexual behaviour means and is associated with. Something which I am sure most of the liberal fellow travellers for western homosexual identity movements wouldnt support but which isnt even up for discussion because any criticism or perspective on homosexual behaviour what so ever which does not amount to cheer leading and a ticker tape parade is dismissed as bigotry. That's a really unhealthy thing. People are going to wake up to that eventually but I'll bet it'll be too late by then, lots and lots of damage will have been done.

    The relationships between scripture, tradition and the structure and practice of religion are interestings ones but the idea of everything being scripturally based and scriptural authority are curious, it was referred to as "solo scripture" during the reformation and one of the major points of division between the protestants and RCC, I think it can be proven to be irrational and madness if you apply that sort of thinking to any other context besides religion. Its also the sign of a dead religion too. A living faith and a living God do not work like that. Its supposed to be the entire point if you read the old testament and new testament and contrast them, contrast the life and ministry of Jesus with the ossification of the Jewish tradition up until that point.

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    Where in scripture does it speak of celibate priests and female priests?
    I think it is either Peter or Paul who suggest that your entire focus should be spiritual but if your passion for your wife should so overwhelm you then you should not be celibate.

    Anyway, the dogma of the RCC on religious being celibate, and it is an asserted dogma as opposed to point of discussion, probably has its roots in the crusades and the church's inability to look after and provide for all the dependents who survived those who had volunteered for the fighting and been killed.

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ponyboy View Post
    hmmm, never thought of it that way. But at least I can now point to a reason that I don't believe in religion. It just seems silly to me (and yes, I know that will stir people up!)
    And what if it doesnt? What if they dont give a shit about your opinion?

    I'm honestly asking this because I've never met anyone who was a quiet atheist, I know one agnostic who is like that, but most of the athiests I know, especially younger ones, have compelling reasons for believing what they do and most of the time its the hope that someone, someplace will be vexed by their holding that belief.

    Which leads me to suspect that in an exclusively atheistic society they could be the most hardcore believers to ever existed.

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    This

    News flash: Pope puts Christian doctrine in terms that doesn't outrage liberals.
    Jesus Christ he's only into office and he's performing Miracles like its no thing!

  9. #39
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I think it is either Peter or Paul who suggest that your entire focus should be spiritual but if your passion for your wife should so overwhelm you then you should not be celibate.

    Anyway, the dogma of the RCC on religious being celibate, and it is an asserted dogma as opposed to point of discussion, probably has its roots in the crusades and the church's inability to look after and provide for all the dependents who survived those who had volunteered for the fighting and been killed.
    You mean the families of the men who had gone to war in the crusades? Thats a theory, but didnt women and even children fight in the crusades? I always thought that celibacy was a much older concept than that though, already in the third century alot of women decided to remain virgins, which is probably the origin of celibacy as far as I know. I dont wanna get too off topic here and turn this into a historical discussion, but looking into the roots of what causes alot of these traditons to exist is still on topic, I guess, since this thread is about the RCC's traditions.

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    There is nothing there that changes long-standing interpretation of Scripture; if they're not going to compromise their beliefs regarding celibate Priests, female Priests, or divorce for the sake of popularity and influence, they're certainly not going to compromise their stance on homosexual relations. Its an apparent recognition that sexual preference is, broadly speaking, not a choice, and perhaps a reaffirmation of a "hate the sin, love the sinner" policy in general......nothing more.
    Which is very, very old with the RCC tradition and part of what the problem was with the relocation of sexual offending priests, that said it is the stance of many churches upon behaviour which they do not sanction, that's not just homosexuality, I had an American friend visit not to long ago who told me about how his minister had addressed the topic in their church during the time in the US when the gay marriages debate was hotting up, he'd said that scripture was clear upon the point, that it was sinful but that he himself was not without sin of other sorts and that should be the point from which believers should proceed to consider these questions and make judgements of their own.

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