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  1. #21
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ponyboy View Post
    I will say right up front that I'm not religious and am in no way trying rile anyone up but to ask an honest question...It seems that this would help bring in new members by being accepting of more people. Or is it more important to stand by long-held beliefs whether they alienate people or not?
    Well, what's the point of most religions -- to make people happy regardless, or to follow the Will of God?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #22
    Insert witty line here... Ponyboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Well, what's the point of most religions -- to make people happy regardless, or to follow the Will of God?
    hmmm, never thought of it that way. But at least I can now point to a reason that I don't believe in religion. It just seems silly to me (and yes, I know that will stir people up!)
    I'm never wrong, I'm just sometimes less right

  3. #23
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    There is nothing there that changes long-standing interpretation of Scripture; if they're not going to compromise their beliefs regarding celibate Priests, female Priests, or divorce for the sake of popularity and influence, they're certainly not going to compromise their stance on homosexual relations. Its an apparent recognition that sexual preference is, broadly speaking, not a choice, and perhaps a reaffirmation of a "hate the sin, love the sinner" policy in general......nothing more.
    The Church will eventually compromise on those other issues, as well. It's just a matter of time.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #24
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    There is nothing there that changes long-standing interpretation of Scripture; if they're not going to compromise their beliefs regarding celibate Priests, female Priests, or divorce for the sake of popularity and influence, they're certainly not going to compromise their stance on homosexual relations. Its an apparent recognition that sexual preference is, broadly speaking, not a choice, and perhaps a reaffirmation of a "hate the sin, love the sinner" policy in general......nothing more.
    This

    News flash: Pope puts Christian doctrine in terms that doesn't outrage liberals.
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  5. #25
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Well, what's the point of most religions -- to make people happy regardless, or to follow the Will of God?
    The point of the secular religion of the USA is enshrined in the Constitution, and it is the pursuit of happiness.

    So the aim of one of one of the most dominant religions of our time is happiness.

    The strange thing is that Americans don't recognise it as a religion any more than they recognise themselves as an empire.

    So Americans don't recognise themselves, reflected in the eyes of others, as a religious empire.

    And in fact when you point it out to them, they say, who cares what you think.

  6. #26
    Insert witty line here... Ponyboy's Avatar
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    (I know this is off-topic but I am just responding to an already off-topic post)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    The point of the secular religion of the USA is enshrined in the Constitution, and it is the pursuit of happiness.

    So the aim of one of one of the most dominant religions of our time is happiness.

    The strange thing is that Americans don't recognise it as a religion any more than they recognise themselves as an empire.

    So Americans don't recognise themselves, reflected in the eyes of others, as a religious empire.

    And in fact when you point it out to them, they say, who cares what you think.
    That right there is my whole problem with religion (even though you changed it enough to seem political).
    When people say they stand behind a 2000 year old book (in your case, 200), but then proceed to pick out and use ONLY the parts that are useful to their message to apply to modern day. Or in your case, America is awful and Australia Rulz!!


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  7. #27
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    i wish judaism was pro-abortion when it had the chance

  8. #28
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ponyboy View Post
    (I know this is off-topic but I am just responding to an already off-topic post)

    That right there is my whole problem with religion (even though you changed it enough to seem political).
    I don't think he was talking about religion in the sense you are, he's referring to kind of "religious zeal" that many Americans have for their country. It really is like a religious faith in their country, the values of their country, and they defend it like zealots protect their faith, and they seem no problem with 'converting' other countries to the American way, etc. The parallel actually isn't bad, once he mentioned it and I could see it.

    We just don't realize we are promoting "Americanism" rather like a religion.

    And he's right when we basically just dismiss the critics by ignoring them/telling them to shut up.

    Bravo!
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #29
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    There is nothing there that changes long-standing interpretation of Scripture; if they're not going to compromise their beliefs regarding celibate Priests, female Priests, or divorce for the sake of popularity and influence, they're certainly not going to compromise their stance on homosexual relations. Its an apparent recognition that sexual preference is, broadly speaking, not a choice, and perhaps a reaffirmation of a "hate the sin, love the sinner" policy in general......nothing more.
    The church has demonstrated authority over scripture, and has made a few alterations to the ten commandments, and the literal interpretation of creation. Why not see gender roles and sexual orientation in scripture as being contextual? That seems a lot easier than letting go of a literal interpretation of the creation week or altering two of the ten commandments - including removing the one about not bowing down to graven images and then splitting the one about coveting into the last two. Also, cutting out most of the fourth commandment, so that there is only a reference to the "Sabbath", but no reference to which day of the week it is. There is nothing in scripture about Sunday being a holy day. The church can pretty much do anything it chooses.

    Edit: I'll add that this is basically a good thing because it allows it to move along with the times, albeit much slower than others not professing to be bound to ancient writings. The Old Testament is a pretty horrific collection and Paul's writings demonstrate a rather harsh mentality, so it's not so bad to let go of some of that.
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  10. #30
    Insert witty line here... Ponyboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I don't think he was talking about religion in the sense you are, he's referring to kind of "religious zeal" that many Americans have for their country. It really is like a religious faith in their country, the values of their country, and they defend it like zealots protect their faith, and they seem no problem with 'converting' other countries to the American way, etc. The parallel actually isn't bad, once he mentioned it and I could see it.

    We just don't realize we are promoting "Americanism" rather like a religion.

    And he's right when we basically just dismiss the critics by ignoring them/telling them to shut up.

    Bravo!
    I understood exactly what he meant. That's why I added in the (political) and (200 years) parts of my reply. I don't actually disagree with what he was saying but I definitely do think that both religious and patriotic zealots pick & choose parts of their chosen document (in this case I refer only to The Bible & the Constitution) to suit their personal agendas.

    Edit: and had some fun with Victor's nationalism as well
    I'm never wrong, I'm just sometimes less right

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