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  1. #11
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Yes, I've seen that.

    It contrasts with the much or clear perspective taken by Jewish authorities, I read a dialogue between Francis and one called Heaven and Earth, it was clearly his view in that book.

    The RCC, it would appear, has gotten itself into a very serious fix, one from which I dont know if it will be able to save itself, with the previous Pope leaving office because he felt he did not have the personal strength to face the challenges which were emerging in his office, this a thing unheard of in history and as serious and important to any believer as the reformation was accompanied by stories of a "gay conspiracy", of corrupt individuals seeking to use their inclusion in an organised and self-interested group seeking self-aggrandisement and ascendency.

    When instituted I dont believe that the authorities who were responsible for the rules within the church of celibacy among the religious could have foreseen that it would lead to the church hierarchy being populated and probably biased seriously in favour of homosexuals.

    About fifthteen years ago I recall reading articles from apologists seeking to clarify that homosexuality itself, the orientation, was not sinful but only homosexual acts, just over ten years ago I knew a number of Jesuits who subsequently have all left their religious calling, which I have no reason what so ever to believe was not a true calling, to be married and have children because they were heterosexual, spokespersons for the Irish church have made statements in no uncertain terms that if this does not change the Church in Ireland is done.

    With respect to all this I dont imagine that any of the homosexual faction within the Church would favour any sort of change to the traditionalism which includes celibacy, the prohibitions on cohabitation, marriage or family life which are at this point just a prohibition against heterosexuality. I also dont believe that this faction will be that worried about the shrinkage of the Church either because it means a smaller population of religious for the resources of the Church to go around.

    I know this is all going to be dismissed by the liberal majority of this forum as homophobia, and that anyone who isnt a fan of homosexuality becoming more commonplace and possibly normative doesnt have a place in the future but these developments really sadden me.

    I'm beginning to give up hope of future generations being able to benefit from any of the norms or institutions which I took for granted growing up, they're going to have a more confused, stressed the fuck out world to inherit and I doubt they'll have much in common with the generations taking a exit and leaving them to it.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I was wondering a lot about what happened to result in the election of Benedict -- and then result in the stepping DOWN of Benedict (which is almost unheard of) and the selection of this new pope Francis.

    Benedict was kind of a surprise choice because he was such a hardline traditionalist compared to the prior pope, and it seemed to signal a traditional shift in the Vatican. And now... Francis... who is saying THESE things? How did that whole dynamic work, what was going on behind the scenes? I'm really curious.
    With the incomplete information I have, my take is that the Benedict was sort of a "last hurrah" for the hardliners in the Church. They had their chance and the Church declined in prominence. We could see another hardliner in the future, but I'm not sure how influential he would even be. Western society doesn't follow the Church anymore, the Church follows society.

    I have no idea, honestly. I mean, I understand about the importance of maintaining a hold on the Western world, but I'm so used to dealing with Protestants and Evangelicals who would essentially prefer to be mowed down and left to die on the hill of their choosing than surrender and give into the cultural values that they disagree with.
    caveat: This only applies to the US. I don't know enough about religion in Europe to comment.

    My impression of Catholics has been that they're generally more liberal than the Church itself, so the Church may have felt pressure to become more liberal. And keep in mind that the Catholic church is a massive, centralized organization. Because of the fractured nature of protestant churches (no centralized authority like the Catholic Church) in the US, you have some liberal ones, but you also have some really crazy conservative ones. So I guess my point is, the crazy conservative Catholics don't really have a way to "act out" the way crazy conservative protestants do. And protestant churches probably attract those crazy conservatives away from Catholicism, at least in the US. I didn't explain that as well as it could have been explained, but maybe that helps.

    Yep, that's another issue here: The conservative churches I am used to just view this as a "winnowing" process where the chaff is separated from the wheat. They don't mind being a minority, if they are the "pure" ones and it keeps the faith pure. They've already incorporated this kind of process into their worldview. God is testing them; they must remain faithful. The rest of the world, alas, has chosen to go to hell.
    There are protestants who feel that way, but I've never gotten the impression that many Catholics feel that way, at least not American Catholics.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #13
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Well, I do agree that if there's a choice between the typical garbage the hardliners say vs this kind of approach, this kind of approach is the better option of the two.
    What hardliners? What did they say and when?

    This is the sort of thing which I hear liberals say all the time and its generally just assumed to be correct, I dont know why, perhaps its the same as the conservative rants about "the liberal media" or what Coulter says about liberals being "traitors" or liberalism being a "mental illness".

    Everyone's got their own version of "them"

  4. #14
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Yeah *sighs*

    FFS.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Yeah *sighs*

    FFS.

  6. #16
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    What hardliners? What did they say and when?

    This is the sort of thing which I hear liberals say all the time and its generally just assumed to be correct, I dont know why, perhaps its the same as the conservative rants about "the liberal media" or what Coulter says about liberals being "traitors" or liberalism being a "mental illness".

    Everyone's got their own version of "them"
    Jesus, Lark, are you back on that paranoid meme again? I'll respond to you seriously when you actually have something of substance to contribute or when you've actually made a reasonable effort to track my meaning. I think a response is wasted until you make an effort from your end to really grasp other people's posts.

    @Lateralus: Yeah, I agree with pretty much all the qualifications you've made here. I'm interested in seeing of how Francis proceeds and the reaction. (I think I noted some of the followers in Brazil weren't happy with his comments.) Also, he's taken a step beyond John Paul II in terms of the opportunities of women within the church structure. So... just curious to see where he's going.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #17
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Jesus, Lark, are you back on that paranoid meme again? I'll respond to you seriously when you actually have something of substance to contribute or when you've actually made a reasonable effort to track my meaning. I think a response is wasted until you make an effort from your end to really grasp other people's posts.

    @Lateralus: Yeah, I agree with pretty much all the qualifications you've made here. I'm interested in seeing of how Francis proceeds and the reaction. (I think I noted some of the followers in Brazil weren't happy with his comments.) Also, he's taken a step beyond John Paul II in terms of the opportunities of women within the church structure. So... just curious to see where he's going.
    Whole lot of anger there.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    http://www.christian.org.uk/news/gay...ntent=FaceBook

    Hmm, yeah, that wasnt predictable or anything.

  9. #19
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    There is nothing there that changes long-standing interpretation of Scripture; if they're not going to compromise their beliefs regarding celibate Priests, female Priests, or divorce for the sake of popularity and influence, they're certainly not going to compromise their stance on homosexual relations. Its an apparent recognition that sexual preference is, broadly speaking, not a choice, and perhaps a reaffirmation of a "hate the sin, love the sinner" policy in general......nothing more.

  10. #20
    Insert witty line here... Ponyboy's Avatar
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    I will say right up front that I'm not religious and am in no way trying rile anyone up but to ask an honest question...It seems that this would help bring in new members by being accepting of more people. Or is it more important to stand by long-held beliefs whether they alienate people or not?
    I'm never wrong, I'm just sometimes less right

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