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  1. #1
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Default Bradley Manning found guilty of espionage, but not of treason

    I'm surprised this isn't a thread about this already. Manning has been found guilty of 20 "crimes" and faces up to 136 years in prison, but he was not found guilty of treason. This is a partial win, I guess. At least it's not treason to inform the American public what its government is doing in secret, but it's still a crime.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...af8_story.html
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #2
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    I wonder if that technicality will ever really make a difference, given the 136 year sentence.
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    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    It may not because some of the charges he was convicted on could apply to journalists. This was a big win for government in its quest to silence investigative journalism. If you're a journalist who is considering exposing some government misdeeds, you better have your an exit strategy that includes a passport. The US is no longer a free country.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Maybe I shouldn't be, but I'm surprised that more people aren't interested in this verdict. It's a more profound than the Zimmerman verdict ever could have been.

    What makes me the most sick about all of this is that nothing has happened to the soldiers and officers who committed the war crimes that Manning exposed. But the guy who exposed the war crimes could spend the rest of his life in prison. We have a vile, disgusting, and corrupt government.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #5
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Maybe I shouldn't be, but I'm surprised that more people aren't interested in this verdict. It's a more profound than the Zimmerman verdict ever could have been.
    I'm not surprised.

    Zimmerman was current buzz and strongly hyped in the news, so people couldn't avoid learning something about it. It also was hyped up to be an indictment of racial prejudice, whether or not it was, and so seems personal to many.

    The Manning situation occurred 3.5 years ago, was hyped for some months before fading, then finally just came back out of the blue this week. The average citizen hasn't been tracking it and probably doesn't even remember specifically what he did at this point, unless they were carefully reading to begin with. And people probably aren't likely to feel a personal relevance to it, even if there is one.

    Basically, the difference stems from (1) the Time factor and (2) the Hype factor.
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  6. #6
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'm not surprised.

    Zimmerman was current buzz and strongly hyped in the news, so people couldn't avoid learning something about it. It also was hyped up to be an indictment of racial prejudice, whether or not it was, and so seems personal to many.

    The Manning situation occurred 3.5 years ago, was hyped for some months before fading, then finally just came back out of the blue this week. The average citizen hasn't been tracking it and probably doesn't even remember specifically what he did at this point, unless they were carefully reading to begin with. And people probably aren't likely to feel a personal relevance to it, even if there is one.

    Basically, the difference stems from (1) the Time factor and (2) the Hype factor.
    I wouldn't expect random people on the street to know, but the people on this forum aren't average people on the street. They're generally more well-informed. I guess I expected too much.

    Here's a list of the charges against Manning:

    http://newsok.com/a-list-of-charges-...rticle/3867509

    One that strikes me as particularly troubling outside of this particular case is this one:

    SPECIFICATION 1: In that Pfc. Bradley E. Manning, U.S. Army, did, at or near Contingency Operating Station Hammer, Iraq, between on or about 1 November 2009 and on or about 27 May 2010, wrongfully and wantonly cause to be published on the internet intelligence belonging to the United States government, having knowledge that intelligence published on the internet is accessible to the enemy , such conduct being prejudicial to good order and discipline in the armed forces and being of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces. GUILTY
    This could be applied to investigative journalists. This is so fucked up.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #7
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Not being charged with aiding the enemy is basically a symbolic gesture. Being guilty of espionage, the military court may as well consider him aiding the enemy without specifically saying it.

    I think the difference between Manning and an investigative journalist is that Manning is part of the military while, more likely than not, a journalist is a civilian. Though I am not sure how/if they are willing to make a distinction between a person who gives the information and the people who receive said information.

    But considering the recent happenings....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Maybe I shouldn't be, but I'm surprised that more people aren't interested in this verdict. It's a more profound than the Zimmerman verdict ever could have been.
    Sadly enough, I don't remember much about Manning except for a few vague details. I think I was against him though... I could probably look for pass posts about him.

    What I have been focusing on for the past year and a half is tangentially related to Manning, possibly.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    Not being charged with aiding the enemy is basically a symbolic gesture. Being guilty of espionage, the military court may as well consider him aiding the enemy without specifically saying it.

    I think the difference between Manning and an investigative journalist is that Manning is part of the military while, more likely than not, a journalist is a civilian. Though I am not sure how/if they are willing to make a distinction between a person who gives the information and the people who receive said information.

    But considering the recent happenings....
    We probably won't ever know for sure, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was just symbolic. They have more than enough guilty charges to put him away for life without that charge.

    The thing about the investigative journalism is, there have already been threats made by the mainstream media and government officials against Glenn Greenwald for his part in the Edward Snowden leak. Here's a link to something Peter King said:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...n-the-republic

    Not only that, but the US government has been pursuing Julian Assange for years. And while he is not employed by a "government approved media outlet", his function was the same, to inform the public. This is all headed in a really bad direction.

    Sadly enough, I don't remember much about Manning except for a few vague details. I think I was against him though... I could probably look for pass posts about him.

    What I have been focusing on for the past year and a half is tangentially related to Manning, possibly.
    Bradley leaked a lot of stuff, but here's a video of US troops shooting some people, then shooting the first responders. Killing the first responders is a war crime. You cannot do that! Our government is sick.

    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #9
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Ugh. Why do people keep bringing up treason? It's not even a relevant issue because constitutionally you can't commit treason unless we're at war. Surprisingly enough the govt has actually held to the letter of the law and nobody has been charged and found guilty of treason since ww2.

    For more info check out this surprisingly excellent piece by Lawrence O'donnell which is primarily about Snowden, but applies to Manning as well.

    http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/06/25/why-e...-be-a-traitor/
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  10. #10
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    I found that video disgusting.

    Upon further research, it's not irrelevant to point out that the group was not entirely unarmed - the photographers are highlighted but the guy with the RPG and the AK aren't. I thought that was unnecessarily deceptive.

    Because regardless, I still find it disgusting.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

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