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  1. #81
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    You say only as if practically is somehow ignoble.
    Allow me to butt in here. I know it wasnt addressed at me, but let me say this; practicality is neither noble or ignoble, it is the result that is noble or ignoble. You cant argue gas chambers werent practical in doing what the were designed for; but will you really argue that their purpose was anything but despiceable?

    Well, for positive utilitarianism, it's usually something to the effect of "the most happiness, distributed over the most people, for the most time", with slight though sometimes crucial alterations. Some people also like to quibble over the word happiness, but suffice to say all sentient beings have a concept of feeling good and mental well being.
    I dont see anything wrong with the concept of happiness for human beings, and perhaps this is the flaw in most conventional moral systems is that they tend to ignore these needs. My beef isnt there. Its in saying that only things useful have value. The goal of use is to bring happiness, but if use happniess has value, what value does happniess have?

    Anyhow, with the goal in mind, all the other questions for navigating that can, like I said, be turned over to cause and effect and cost and benefit.

    I'd just like to say that whenever I hear of a moral code that does not concern itself with measurable result, I am staggered by its pointlessness. This is a morality which may have no impact and avoids means of determining if there in fact was one. Why would its existence even matter?
    Virtue exists for its own sake and is not contingent upon ulterior ends. I think we're talking about two different things, in reality, the original arguement was about virtue, which doesnt have an impact on the material world. Your talking about getting results in the real world for happiness/pleasuure/satisfatcion of human beings, which while noble isnt an ideal in itself, the way Plato argued that ideals exist; for their on sake.

  2. #82
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    If only it were that simple. But we'd have to determine who's impact in the world is bad enough to call the person "bad" and thus kill them. And then we'd have to discuss the means of that killing and all the costs involved in attempting to do that, etc...

    The great thing about my philosophy is that it whittles the presumptive elements of morality down to a minimum and leaves the rest to be inferred, turning sticky moral questions over to cause-effect and cost-benefit analysis which is infinitely more practical, therefore useful, therefore good.
    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    My moral philosophy says there is no good other than a good result.
    This is, to put it politely, a bag of bollocks.

    If it's too difficult to determine what is "bad" it's also too difficult to determine what is "good".
    Defining good in terms of itself is....circular.
    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Well, for positive utilitarianism, it's usually something to the effect of "the most happiness, distributed over the most people, for the most time",
    Then pro-life must be the "greater good", since it leads to the "most people". Whether they will be happy or not, well sometimes they will be, sometimes they won't. Who can say? Certainly not you.

    Yeah, it's never as simple as you think, is it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  3. #83
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    Virtue exists for its own sake and is not contingent upon ulterior ends. I think we're talking about two different things, in reality, the original arguement was about virtue, which doesnt have an impact on the material world. Your talking about getting results in the real world for happiness/pleasuure/satisfatcion of human beings, which while noble isnt an ideal in itself, the way Plato argued that ideals exist; for their on sake.
    When you say ideals exist for their own sake, are you talking about memetics?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #84
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    When you say ideals exist for their own sake, are you talking about memetics?
    Wikipedia defines memetics as

    the meme, analogous to a gene, was conceived as a "unit of culture" (an idea, belief, pattern of behaviour, etc.) which is "hosted" in one or more individual minds, and which can reproduce itself, thereby jumping from mind to mind.
    In this case, however, the idea need not reproduce itself as gene since it accesible to anyone with a mind that can conceive it. Still you bring up an intersting point: the idea being experienced is the same to everyone that experiences it. Its like looking at a landscape, instead of a picture of a landscape. The picture would be the meme, and different people can each look at their own meme of the landscape. Or you can look at the picture itself, which is the original of what the photograph is but a reproduction of. Or many people can look at the landscape at the same time, which, I think adresses your point; several people can ponder the same idea, which doesnt make it a meme.

    Does that answer your question?

  5. #85
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    Wikipedia defines memetics as



    In this case, however, the idea need not reproduce itself as gene since it accesible to anyone with a mind that can conceive it. Still you bring up an intersting point: the idea being experienced is the same to everyone that experiences it. Its like looking at a landscape, instead of a picture of a landscape. The picture would be the meme, and different people can each look at their own meme of the landscape. Or you can look at the picture itself, which is the original of what the photograph is but a reproduction of. Or many people can look at the landscape at the same time, which, I think adresses your point; several people can ponder the same idea, which doesnt make it a meme.
    That actually doesn't address my point. To be virtuous is really just another way of saying someone is acting morally or has high moral character. It sounds like you're trying to say that morals exist for their own sake, which I don't think someone can entirely disagree with if they take the concept of memetics seriously. But it doesn't sound like you were referring to memetics, so your point about virtues existing for their own sake...eh, I'll just let it go. I don't want to derail this thread.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #86
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    It's a bit complicated here in Germany. (This is mostly Wikipedia information, I have not had one myself)

    Strictly speaking, abortion is not legal, it just isn't punishable during the first 12 weeks after nidation (14 weeks after the last period) if the woman has had a conversation with a councelor about it (mostly a formality) and followed a 3 day waiting period or if there is a medical indication or if the pregnancy came about through a crime (read: rape). After that, it is not punishable for the woman but illegal for the doctor (unless there were special circumstances) between the 12th and 24nd week.

    Health insurance usually covers the costs (about 400 dollars).

    There are about 130.000 abortions in Germany every year at a total population of about 81 million.

    They are offered at most hospitals (except private Catholic ones) and many doctor's offices, I have never heard that there was a problem with the availablility.

    As far as social debate is concerned, it's not really much of an issue. There was a bit of a row years ago when German Catholics wanted to offer their own counceling service which in many cases would have meant giving women the prove of counceling they need in order to then have an abortion anyway and Rome interfered and stopped them.

    Overall, it is not a hot button issue in German society.
    That comes to $52,000,000 spent on abortions each year in the People's State of Germany. And that's just the operation itself, not the required counseling.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #87
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    That comes to $52,000,000 spent on abortions each year in the People's State of Germany. And that's just the operation itself, not the required counseling.
    I know you are being facetious, but the German Democratic Republic which has disappeared over 20 years ago actually hadmore liberal laws than the West. They were far more advanced in women's rights in many regards. After reunification, the laws of the Federal Republic of Germany were adjusted to fit both cultures.

    We are far from being lefties though, mostly goverened by Christian Democrats and only an ultra rightwing American could consider centrist Germany to be socialist-ish-y.

    EDIT: Looks like we can afford it. It's also a fraction of what the new airport in Berlin is gonna cost and lord knows when or if that is ever going to open.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  8. #88
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    I know you are being facetious, but the German Democratic Republic which has disappeared over 20 years ago actually hadmore liberal laws than the West. They were far more advanced in women's rights in many regards. After reunification, the laws of the Federal Republic of Germany were adjusted to fit both cultures.

    We are far from being lefties though, mostly goverened by Christian Democrats and only an ultra rightwing American could consider centrist Germany to be socialist-ish-y.
    No, not "only an ultra rightwing American," ANY American.

    $52,000,000 a year for abortions, not including the cost of the required counseling.

    EDIT - I'm sure the People's State of Germany can afford it. But - $52,000,000 to pay for women's abortions?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #89
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    No, not "only an ultra rightwing American," ANY American.

    $52,000,000 a year for abortions, not including the cost of the required counseling.
    1. Germans spend twice that amount on fireworks for New Year's Eve.
    2. You probably know all too well that I was talking about values, not money. You are mixing two seperate issues.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  10. #90
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    1. Germans spend twice that amount on fireworks for New Year's Eve.
    2. You probably know all too well that I was talking about values, not money. You are mixing two seperate issues.
    http://findingjustice.org/fourth-of-july-fireworks/
    Talking about the US and July 4th: "With a nation in debt and a world full of needs, it makes you question the wisdom of burning-up $600 million in one day, doesn’t it?"

    It doesn't get burned up, the two issues are totally dissimilar. But my real question is (and this is why I referred to the People's State of Germany), how much of this cost is picked up by the German taxpayer?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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