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  1. #71
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Uh, no. This isn't about virtue being about "conservative morals." This is about virtue being virtue and "measurable results" don't mean a damn when it comes to virtue. I don't care whether white lies on a resume will get you measurable results it still violates principles of virtue.
    Virtue is subjective, not objective. Every subculture has its own idea of what virtue is, and the brand of virtue you're arguing for is American conservative.

    As for your comment about white lies on resumes getting better results...I have no idea what you're talking about. Comprehensive sex education leads to fewer pregnancies and therefore fewer abortions. That FACT is indisputable. It would then be logical for conservatives, who want fewer abortions, to support comprehensive sex education over abstinence-only education, but they would rather push their moral agenda at the expense of results. They're trying to reach a utopia that is no more easily attainable than the utopia promised by the Soviets.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #72
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    If only it were that simple.
    That's despicable.



    But we'd have to determine who's impact in the world is bad enough to call the person "bad" and thus kill them. And then we'd have to discuss the means of that killing and all the costs involved in attempting to do that, etc...
    Really? Only a matter of practicality is keeping you from mass killings?



    The great thing about my philosophy is that it whittles the presumptive elements of morality down to a minimum and leaves the rest to be inferred, turning sticky moral questions over to cause-effect and cost-benefit analysis which is infinitely more practical, therefore useful, therefore good.

    What exactly is that minimum? Because that minimum moral presumption is what leads you to determine what is practical. Good determines what is practical. What is practical does not determine what is good. Don't make me Godwin this thread this early.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  3. #73
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Should you, or those who agree with you be the arbiters of what is virtuous?

    Especially when polling reflects broad based support for some restrictions on the procedure.
    I haven't heard anyone argue for completely unrestricted abortion. The arguments center on what restrictions are necessary and sensible. Restrictions to ensure the procedure is done in keeping with established medical standards make sense, as do restrictions that prohibit abortion of viable fetuses except when medically necessary for the mother. Restrictions motivated by the desire to put all abortion providers out of business and to ban all abortions do not. They are instead the acts of political cowards who are afraid to tackle the issue head-on because they know the public doesn't agree with an outright ban, so they nickle-and-dime everyone with restrictions, regulations, requirements, waiting periods, etc. that have nothing to do with protecting the health of women or allowing viable fetuses to be born.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Uh, no. This isn't about virtue being about "conservative morals." This is about virtue being virtue and "measurable results" don't mean a damn when it comes to virtue. I don't care whether white lies on a resume will get you measurable results it still violates principles of virtue.
    But virtue is not simply virtue. The fact that many people agree on many virtues - honesty and trustworthiness, for instance - does not change the fact that virtue is subjective and thus in the eye of the beholder. Some businesses, for instance, see risk-taking as a virtue, while others find it virtuous to take a conservative approach. Who is right?

    This doesn't mean one cannot measure results, though, but measurements just provide data. They must then be weighed against a goal or standard to see if one measures up. The subjective values are buried in these standards. If someone, for instance, values reducing abortions to as close to zero as possible, then the measure is how many abortions are performed per unit time. If making contraceptives available is shown to reduce abortions by reducing unwanted pregnancy, then it would be considered virtuous by this standard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    My moral philosophy says there is no good other than a good result.
    The Bahai's say something similar, about judging someone by the fruits of their work. I agree. Yes, we can argue what constitutes a good result, or perhaps even a better result, but too many people, having thus agreed, do not do the logical things to bring them closer to those goals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    What exactly is that minimum? Because that minimum moral presumption is what leads you to determine what is practical. Good determines what is practical. What is practical does not determine what is good. Don't make me Godwin this thread this early.
    Practicality, like efficiency, is a good in and of itself, but since it applies to methods, it presumes one is applying it to an end also determined to be good.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #74
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I haven't heard anyone argue for completely unrestricted abortion. The arguments center on what restrictions are necessary and sensible. Restrictions to ensure the procedure is done in keeping with established medical standards make sense, as do restrictions that prohibit abortion of viable fetuses except when medically necessary for the mother. Restrictions motivated by the desire to put all abortion providers out of business and to ban all abortions do not. They are instead the acts of political cowards who are afraid to tackle the issue head-on because they know the public doesn't agree with an outright ban, so they nickle-and-dime everyone with restrictions, regulations, requirements, waiting periods, etc. that have nothing to do with protecting the health of women or allowing viable fetuses to be born.
    Agreed. The tactic used by conservatives in Texas is similar to what conservatives did to blacks in the past with the poll tax. It was illegal to prevent blacks from voting just as it is illegal to ban abortion. So conservatives have decided to make it expensive and inconvenient, hoping to discourage people from accessing their constitutionally protected right.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #75
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    That's despicable.
    I would surprised and skeptical if you told me there's no one on earth you'd rather have dead for the good humanity.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Really? Only a matter of practicality is keeping you from mass killings?
    You say only as if practically is somehow ignoble.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    What exactly is that minimum? Because that minimum moral presumption is what leads you to determine what is practical. Good determines what is practical. What is practical does not determine what is good. Don't make me Godwin this thread this early.
    Well, for positive utilitarianism, it's usually something to the effect of "the most happiness, distributed over the most people, for the most time", with slight though sometimes crucial alterations. Some people also like to quibble over the word happiness, but suffice to say all sentient beings have a concept of feeling good and mental well being.

    Anyhow, with the goal in mind, all the other questions for navigating that can, like I said, be turned over to cause and effect and cost and benefit.

    I'd just like to say that whenever I hear of a moral code that does not concern itself with measurable result, I am staggered by its pointlessness. This is a morality which may have no impact and avoids means of determining if there in fact was one. Why would its existence even matter?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  6. #76
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    These ideas are mutually contradictory. Making contraceptives and abortions cheap and available to the poor would do wonders for bringing down their birth rates. I guess the Native Americans were right about "White men speak with forked tongue". (Or is that just another stereotype?)
    I couldn't venture to say. But yes, the ideas are mutually contradictory and don't make any sense beyond the most perfunctory consideration.

    I am pro-life. I consider abortion a type of infanticide. We know how to reduce abortions: good sex education (hell, any and all education helps), access to contraceptives, an adequate social safety net, generous parental leave, access to high quality childcare, protecting women from workplace discrimination when they become mothers. Those things, to me, are pro-life. In a situation where few if any of those things are in place, putting poor women in a position where they can choose between having a child that will negatively impact their lives in virtually every way or having dangerous, unregulated abortions and risking their health and lives is not pro-life in any way, shape, or form. It's self-righteous and cruel. And it's not about saving the lives of unborn children. If they cared about that they'd try doing something effective rather than punitive.


    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I often use the term "divide-and-conquer economics" to describe the American myth of rugged economic individualism/each man for himself.
    It's been a highly effective myth and a lot of money has been and is being invested in keeping it alive. I think that's a lot of the purpose of reality TV. It's basically the new Horatio Alger's story.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  7. #77
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    We even had our then king Boudewijn who is required to sign off on every law (mostly a ceremonial position) cause some trouble. He himself was a devout catholic who was unable to conceive with our queen, and he felt that he could not in good conscience sign off on this law. So, Belgium, pragmatic as always, understood and - after discussing the matter with the King - dethroned him for a day, had the prime minister sign I think and the next day things were back to normal
    Just popping in to say this is brilliant.

  8. #78
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I couldn't venture to say. But yes, the ideas are mutually contradictory and don't make any sense beyond the most perfunctory consideration.

    I am pro-life. I consider abortion a type of infanticide. We know how to reduce abortions: good sex education (hell, any and all education helps), access to contraceptives, an adequate social safety net, generous parental leave, access to high quality childcare, protecting women from workplace discrimination when they become mothers. Those things, to me, are pro-life. In a situation where few if any of those things are in place, putting poor women in a position where they can choose between having a child that will negatively impact their lives in virtually every way or having dangerous, unregulated abortions and risking their health and lives is not pro-life in any way, shape, or form. It's self-righteous and cruel. And it's not about saving the lives of unborn children. If they cared about that they'd try doing something effective rather than punitive.
    I am probably toward the other end of the spectrum when it comes to abortion, but I still agree with what you say. I am one of those folks who wants to keep abortion safe, legal, accessible, and very rare. It mystifies me that people on both sides of this debate don't realize how much they (should) have in common when it comes to actual practice and implementation. We are all more on the same side than the ideologues will acknowledge. The highlighted sums it up well.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vasilisa View Post
    *MOD WARNING: Cut out the nasty, snide personal attacks in this thread.*
    May I ask why @Standuble's post wasn't removed? It wasn't just a ridiculous personal attack against me, but an attack on all sensors.

    I love the double standards on this forum. They rock the house.

    Not.

  10. #80
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I am probably toward the other end of the spectrum when it comes to abortion, but I still agree with what you say. I am one of those folks who wants to keep abortion safe, legal, accessible, and very rare. It mystifies me that people on both sides of this debate don't realize how much they (should) have in common when it comes to actual practice and implementation. We are all more on the same side than the ideologues will acknowledge. The highlighted sums it up well.
    Yeah. It's mostly emotional rhetoric that is really divisive. Making abortion safe, legal, and very rare isn't rocket science but it also would require people to put their money where their mouth is. And that is where these folks that care so much about the unborn generally draw the line.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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