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  1. #41
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    Post removed by user.
    Last edited by Standuble; 08-03-2013 at 12:32 AM.

  2. #42
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I would love to hear the perspective of folks in other countires on the issue and how those countries have reached what appears to be a very reasonable middle ground, without the sheer nastiness of the US debate....also why are we so bonkers on both sides on the issue in the US?
    I’m behind the theories that suppose the histrionics are more about people being directed- en masse- by the puppet strings of their unconscious more than it really being about the issue at hand. A couple of my favorite writers about this are Jonathan Haidt and Joseph Burgo (there are others, but those are the first that come to mind). [Haidt wrote The Righteous Mind.]

    From The Emotional Psychology of a Two Party System, Joseph Burgo on the defense mechanism of 'splitting':

    On the emotional front, splitting comes into play when we feel hostile toward the people we love. Holding onto feelings of love in the presence of anger and even hatred is a difficult thing for most of us to do. Sometimes hatred proves so powerful that it overwhelms and eclipses love, bringing the relationship to an end. More often we repress awareness of our hostile feelings; or we might split them off and direct them elsewhere, away from the people we care about.

    In other words, splitting as a psychological defense mechanism resolves emotional ambivalence -- love and hatred toward the same person -- by splitting off one half of those feelings and directing them elsewhere, away from the loved one.

    One of the helpful functions of society is to provide us with outlets for that anger -- to identify places where it's okay to feel and express (split off) aggression, even hatred. Consider the uses of professional sports, for example, where most spectators identify with one team or competitor and wish to crush the opponent. Not only does this provide a needed outlet for competitive urges, it also allows us to channel many aggressive feelings away from our intimate relationships and express them in a safer context.

    [.....]

    On the other hand, if we make use of splitting to gin up hatred against a two-dimensional Other, we undermine our ability to think. The enemy is rarely as monochromatically evil as governments like to portray; the other side often has legitimate complaints against us we might do well to heed. Fomenting hatred rather than encouraging rational thought may lead us into ill-considered wars we later come to regret.

    In politics, to the extent our parties rely more on splitting and hatred than appeals to thought, they create a wartime atmosphere on the domestic front. We are good, the other side is bad, and we hate them. Preoccupied with vilifying the opposition, we're unable to perceive both sides of an issue and find a way to accommodate them both, albeit imperfectly.




    As far as why this kind of thing is so much more rampant in the US though, not sure.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    The British crew said, "Social class is more complicated than that... Salary is part of it, but there is more to it."

    And they went on to conclude that just as Race is America's obsession/strange sticking point, Social Class is Britain's obsession/strange sticking point.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22000973

    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    Did that make sense to you or should I dumb it down further? I don't know why you keep coming here really. Ever since you exposed yourself as an SP you have doomed yourself to being perceived as a lesser type or second class citizen (even if subconsciously) by most of the forum. Now get out of here sensor. This is an adult conversation.
    It's you who needs to be seriously considering your future on this forum. Childish bigotry of the kind in which you specialise impresses no one. I know you're only baiting Marm / the SPs because you like getting your ass kicked, but it's just so... unseemly. So thoroughly impolite. You're making Britain look bad. So stop it now, there's a good boy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  4. #44
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    Hold your tongue sensor. You are not in any position to educate about anything. Especially a post (where to a person capable of reading through the lines its easy to spot) is clearly incomplete and could be expanded upon in a number of ways.

    As you are incapable of determining what was not said I shall explain to you in a simple way. My answer only stated the reason why it's a big issue. I KNOW there is plenty of Fe in Europe however historic divisions have created cultural differences. An Fe-dom (from what I understand) believes that the social ethics they are presented with are the only truth and that it is foolish not to adhere to them. A culturally homogeneous country like America would not have large variances so an ESFJ for instance will believe the consistently upheld social value is correct one. This had its origins in presumably a small number of Fi users who were against abortion.

    Europe however does not have this issue. One country can be a neighbour but completely foreign. If an Fe user stands on the edge and sees one which values abortion and one that hates abortion they aren't going to see pro-life as the universal best path.

    Did that make sense to you or should I dumb it down further? I don't know why you keep coming here really. Ever since you exposed yourself as an SP you have doomed yourself to being perceived as a lesser type or second class citizen (even if subconsciously) by most of the forum. Now get out of here sensor. This is an adult conversation.
    This had better be tongue-in-cheek and if it is, emoticons really are your friend, coz...
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  5. #45
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    As far as why this kind of thing is so much more rampant in the US though, not sure.
    I don't think it necessarily is. From an outsider's perspective, it's often difficult to perceive what the differences between your political parties are.... From what I can make out you have an evil God-bothering party and one that's slightly less evil and God-bothering. Perhaps it is this banal homogeneity that causes you to exaggerate the differences that arise?
    Americans are a people in search of an identity.

    http://www.livescience.com/18177-ame...aggerated.html
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #46
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    An Fe-dom (from what I understand) believes that the social ethics they are presented with are the only truth and that it is foolish not to adhere to them. A culturally homogeneous country like America would not have large variances so an ESFJ for instance will believe the consistently upheld social value is correct one. This had its origins in presumably a small number of Fi users who were against abortion.

    ]

    Oh no, not a Fi user going on about fake, repressive Fe again. How do you explain all the NFJ hippies, if Fe just takes the normative ethics of society and mindlessly regurgitates them? Ethics differ among Fe users.

    Moreover, America is not culturally homogenous. I honestly don't understand where you arrive at that. America has at least two cultures (which are "warring"), and it may have even more between various immigrant communities and their descendants.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

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  7. #47
    Symbolic Herald Vasilisa's Avatar
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    *MOD WARNING: Cut out the nasty, snide personal attacks in this thread.*
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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Oh no, not a Fi user going on about fake, repressive Fe again. How do you explain all the NFJ hippies, if Fe just takes the normative ethics of society and mindlessly regurgitates them? Ethics differ among Fe users.

    Moreover, America is not culturally homogenous. I honestly don't understand where you arrive at that. America has at least two cultures (which are "warring"), and it may have even more between various immigrant communities and their descendants.
    It wasn't anti-Fe slander - I was just trying to explain how the process would work from my point of view - which was someone at work, dealing with several tasks and messaging from a phone. I would explain away NFJ hippies as just being exposed to alternate sets of values (and the Ni + Ti of course.)

    Also when I called America culturally homogeneous I meant the base structure. America initially spread out from the thirteen colonies under a culture directly descended from the British and installed an Anglo Saxon framework across the whole country. Even during the civil war it was two countries with the same language and history. Any multi-culturalism would be innovations which are not strong enough on their own to radically alter the underlying Anglo Saxon structure which is influencing cultural values.

    My argument probably sucks, I could have expanded on my previous post better than I did and I don't want to sit here and correct it and hopefully redeem it in a long series of posts. I got my enjoyment out of the ad hominem part which was my main objective. Plus I'm still at work. Good day to you sir.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22000973

    It's you who needs to be seriously considering your future on this forum. Childish bigotry of the kind in which you specialise impresses no one. I know you're only baiting Marm / the SPs because you like getting your ass kicked, but it's just so... unseemly. So thoroughly impolite. You're making Britain look bad. So stop it now, there's a good boy.
    I don't exactly care whether I'm banned or not. Besides, nobody knows I'm from Britain save a few people anyway so my antics won't make it look bad. Three, I was telling her what I thought and not baiting. Four, I regard the way I come across to other posters as roughly the same way you come across to other posters (you're one to talk in other words) and five I thought I said I didn't want to speak to you? You keep quoting me even though I have you on ignore. You're more familar with the board rules than I am. Could you tell me whether that is technically harassment?

  10. #50
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    It wasn't anti-Fe slander - I was just trying to explain how the process would work from my point of view - which was someone at work, dealing with several tasks and messaging from a phone. I would explain away NFJ hippies as just being exposed to alternate sets of values (and the Ni + Ti of course.)

    Also when I called America culturally homogeneous I meant the base structure. America initially spread out from the thirteen colonies under a culture directly descended from the British and installed an Anglo Saxon framework across the whole country. Even during the civil war it was two countries with the same language and history. Any multi-culturalism would be innovations which are not strong enough on their own to radically alter the underlying Anglo Saxon structure which is influencing cultural values.

    My argument probably sucks, I could have expanded on my previous post better than I did and I don't want to sit here and correct it and hopefully redeem it in a long series of posts. I got my enjoyment out of the ad hominem part which was my main objective. Plus I'm still at work. Good day to you sir.
    Oddly, I would almost argue your and others thoughts regarding homogeneity in the US as issue-our regional divisions are quite profound and have significant impacts on our political views. Havent you seen the red/blue maps?

    Different states/regions can have very different social norms-the south/north in terms of social manners or California vs Texas in terms of environmental regulation are two examples. In some ways each state brokers their own rules and the folks who live there get to live by them or can move to a place more of their liking. Most texans are in favor of the laws we live by, in spite of the very vocal minority who are not happy with them.

    Perhaps part of the problem, is that we are trying to force very folks with very different Fe expectations of social norms to try and abide by the same set of rules? and religion of course, what a mess. Z bucks post was interesting as well...

    (also something I think that isnt always realized-Fi builds it internal values based upon what it observes and the situations it encounters other in...thus is fed by the standing Fe social norms in some ways, as those are the typical rules others follow. It isnt simply Fe sucks, but more about how individuals are modled by the values built upon generations-Thomas Sowell and Maxwell Glad...the Blink dude... both have written interesting books describing how cultural influences can transcend through tens of generations after folks have relocated geographically)

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