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  1. #11
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Why are we nuts in the US? Religion.
    Religion and religious values are what cause people to get dramatic over abortion as an issue, yes. Which is why in Europe people have less of tendency to go nuts over stuff like abortion since people take religion less literally(at least today).

  2. #12
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    I think the late-abortion ban aspect of the Texas legislation is a red herring. I don't think it significantly alters a woman's right to an abortion. More objectionable to more people are the new restrictions on abortion clinics that would effectively shutter the vast majority of clinics in the state. It's like voter ID laws - the premise sounds reasonable at first glance until you study the consequences and realize the true intent of the legislation.
    Exactly. Late birth abortions are very rare - they're totally legal here in Canada (from what I recall) but almost never performed (edit: 0.7% of all abortions here are after 20 weeks and 90% are done before 12 weeks, according to wiki), and I'm not even sure you could get a doctor to do it "just because", they're typically cases where the fetus is already compromised. In the US where late-term abortions are restricted in many states, the rate after 20 weeks was 1.4% of all abortions - double the Canadian rate for some reason, maybe economic reasons or maybe just noise.

    The point of the bill was to introduce extremely restrictive laws that sound good on the surface but don't actually improve the safety of the procedure, purely in an attempt to shut down the vast majority of clinics and restrict access to early-term abortions. The late-term abortion thing was just an emotional appeal for them to layer on top to push the bill through, since it's a rare and controversial procedure that even many pro-choice people agree should have some restrictions (although I still think they should be allowed in cases where the mother's health is at risk or the fetus is non-viable, at a bare minimum).

    Anyway if you want a comparison, Canada is probably more relevant than Europe, although we're only one country. Culturally we're almost identical to you guys, other than having fewer pockets of fundamentalism. Again, abortion is totally legal here at any gestational point, although doctors aren't required to perform the procedure, meaning that it is hard to find someone to do an elective late-term abortion especially in some areas. The costs are covered by the government in most provinces. According to wiki Canada has an abortion rate of about 30 per 100 live births, with just under 100,000 done in 2005. The US had 1.2 million performed in 2004, which is a pretty similar proportion of the population.

    I am surprised to hear about the restrictions in Europe, though - I knew late-term abortion is restricted in many places, but 12 weeks is not very late.
    -end of thread-

  3. #13
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    Fe. Lots and lots of Fe and a few Fi users lighting the matches.

  4. #14

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    Well killing people when they are babies and killing them years later through unemployment and destitution, take your pick apparently.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Chiharu's Avatar
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    It is a slippery slope in America, though. The Supreme Court didn't have the balls to go all out in Roe v. Wade, and it may very likely be challenged again in the future. Furthermore, while late-term abortions are uncommon, they often save women's lives. And now that option is no longer available to women in Texas. They've been pushing back the date for abortions since they passed Roe v. Wade. Will women's bodies be piling up in the streets? No. Will women die? Yes, most likely. But Texas thinks a fetus is more important,though their concern apparently ends once it becomes a child or, "God" forbid, a poor person.

    If we don't do something now, we won't like the future. That's not fear-mongering. It's the truth.
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  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    The US in itself is a failed abortion, so no wonder your country doesn't like them.
    Does this even mean anything, or is it simply a grenade?
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  7. #17
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Our new Texas laws actually are actually nowhere near as draconian as the ones in europe, but you dont seem to see women in europe protesting those laws?

    I would love to hear the perspective of folks in other countires on the issue and how those countries have reached what appears to be a very reasonable middle ground, without the sheer nastiness of the US debate....also why are we so bonkers on both sides on the issue in the US?
    I wonder if abortion is less of an issue in some of these other nations because of better access to birth control, so there are fewer unintended pregnancies to begin with. I would have less objection to rules prohibiting abortion after 20 weeks, barring medical necessity, if abortions could be had readily before that. All the roadblocks put in women's way, especially those that scare or bankrupt clinics into closing, make it a much more time consuming process for especially poor women to arrange an abortion.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #18
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    Does this even mean anything, or is it simply a grenade?
    grenade. sorry, i was in a bad mood.

    but there might also be a pint of truth to it. if you think that all colonised countries (US, Australia, South America, Africa) are more conservative than Europe.... if you go back in history, then the US started with:
    1) convicts being sent away because they were not wanted in Europe)
    2) priests going there to convert the indians
    3) people going on a gold rush
    I don't see any of those classes necessarily interested in expanding overseas the ideas of democracy and social care that are the basis of Europe.
    And those are the sort of things from which a culture will be based on, so look at today. I'm not even going to start criticizing the model of society there, but I'll just say that it's clear from an historical point of view that Europe and the US are very different.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I wonder if abortion is less of an issue in some of these other nations because of better access to birth control, so there are fewer unintended pregnancies to begin with. I would have less objection to rules prohibiting abortion after 20 weeks, barring medical necessity, if abortions could be had readily before that. All the roadblocks put in women's way, especially those that scare or bankrupt clinics into closing, make it a much more time consuming process for especially poor women to arrange an abortion.
    No, the same people who want to limit abortion are also trying to limit access to contraception because sex is only supposed to be about procreation. This is about religion.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #20
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    No, the same people who want to limit abortion are also trying to limit access to contraception because sex is only supposed to be about procreation. This is about religion.
    In the U.S. that is certainly the case. I am wondering whether it is different in the foreign countries that have what seem to be far more restrictive laws on abortion.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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