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  1. #111
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I outlined the ways I think this can be accomplished in an earlier post and am too lazy to do so again.
    Fair enough.
    This one:
    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I am pro-life. I consider abortion a type of infanticide. We know how to reduce abortions: good sex education (hell, any and all education helps), access to contraceptives, an adequate social safety net, generous parental leave, access to high quality childcare, protecting women from workplace discrimination when they become mothers. Those things, to me, are pro-life. In a situation where few if any of those things are in place, putting poor women in a position where they can choose between having a child that will negatively impact their lives in virtually every way or having dangerous, unregulated abortions and risking their health and lives is not pro-life in any way, shape, or form. It's self-righteous and cruel. And it's not about saving the lives of unborn children. If they cared about that they'd try doing something effective rather than punitive.
    ?

    I guess I don't really understand what your position is. You consider it (necessary) murder, yes?
    While these measures would perhaps reduce abortions, I'm not convinced they'd make them "very rare". Especially not when some women will happily have one after another and treat them as a substitute for contraceptives, despite widespread access to those.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  2. #112
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Fair enough.
    This one:?

    I guess I don't really understand what your position is. You consider it (necessary) murder, yes?
    While these measures would perhaps reduce abortions, I'm not convinced they'd make them "very rare". Especially not when some women will happily have one after another and treat them as a substitute for contraceptives, despite widespread access to those.
    Not necessary murder, no. More of an instinctive behavior of very distressed mammals. We're not going to stop it completely because it's almost as much feature as bug, but we can (and IMO, should) remove as many of the stressors that cause the behavior as we possibly can. As far as women that repeatedly abort despite having access to contraceptives, those are the among the ones we can't prevent without introducing fairly draconian measures, if then. I don't think policy should mostly be based on outliers, which I think (and hope) those women are. It seems like it's kind of self-destructive and probably they are not in a good place, but that's just based on my own way of thinking and feeling which is in no way universal. Perhaps, if these things were kept track of, incentives for voluntary sterilization could be offered after a certain number of abortions? I don't know. That might be too much like eugenics, which I don't think is a good direction for society to take.
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  3. #113
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Sorry to be joining this conversation so late, but I'd like to respond to some of the previous comments that were made here. Several posters noted that the American conception of social class is predicated solely on the person's level of wealth: in other words, the class that one belongs to is determined by the person's level of prosperity. By contrast, the Europeans have a significantly more multifaceted and a variegated conception of social class. It has also been remarked that even the European gentry and the aristocracy perceived a greater moral responsibility to aid the poor than the members of the privileged strata of the American society.

    I am inclined to agree with all of these assessments and the unique history of the United States seems to shed light on reasons why such disparities exist. By and large, the Europeans who immigrated to the American colonies tended to be fiercely independent, entrepreneurial and willing to take significant risks to achieve great prosperity. Many were even willing to sell themselves into indentured servitude with the understanding that upon release, they would be given an opportunity to become land-owners. The idea that one can become a self-made man through industry and innovation is deeply embedded within the very foundation of the American collective consciousness. Naturally, the entrepreneurs prospered in the United States and played an instrumental role in facilitating the onset of the industrial revolution in the U.S. However, it was simply inevitable that the majority of the American citizens were incapable of becoming self-made men and the leading businesspeople of the American society were immediately confronted with the conflict they faced with those who were much less well off than they were.

    At the core, the entrepreneurs were inner-directed people, but the ordinary workers who were employed at their enterprises were other-directed (these findings are well-documented in David Reissman's, the Lonely crowd http://www.amazon.com/The-Lonely-Cro...e+Lonely+crowd). Consequently, the majority of Americans did not share their bosses' passion for achieving enormous prosperity through ingenuity and industry and yet in order to maintain their dominance over the plebeians, the elites were compelled to persuade the simpletons that the economic inequalities were just. The entrepreneurial elites of America mounted the argument that one's level of prosperity was a direct reflection of their personal integrity, capacity for hard-work and other essential strengths of character. To render their ideology immune to possible refutations, they pursued an alliance with the Church that persuaded the masses that God sanctioned the economic inequalities (http://www.amazon.com/Protestant-Eth...+of+capitalism). The doctrine that the Church propounded was that of the "Protestant work-ethic" which was founded on the notion that all people were elected by God to be either saved or condemned to hell and salvation manifested in one's capacity to work hard and become wealthy. Consequently, the Protestant Ethic led many ordinary Americans to presume that God willed for the poor to suffer and they should be offered no help.

    The deep economic inequalities are not merely a plight of the modern times and the greed of Wall-Street is not the root of the problem. The 2008 financial crisis and the fact that not one CEO who contributed to the debacle stood trial in its aftermath is the culmination of a long-standing American tradition that is rooted in our country's foundation myth.
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  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Restrictions motivated by the desire to put all abortion providers out of business and to ban all abortions do not. They are instead the acts of political cowards who are afraid to tackle the issue head-on because they know the public doesn't agree with an outright ban, so they nickle-and-dime everyone with restrictions, regulations, requirements, waiting periods, etc. that have nothing to do with protecting the health of women or allowing viable fetuses to be born.
    This statement doesn't seem to be colored by your personal opinions and prejudices at all...

  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Sorry to be joining this conversation so late, but I'd like to respond to some of the previous comments that were made here...
    Your tinfoil hat is ready for pickup.

  6. #116
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    This statement doesn't seem to be colored by your personal opinions and prejudices at all...
    I'm sure my statements reflect opinion on some level, and I can't claim to be free of prejudice. Conclusions accepted based on a preponderance of the evidence are not opinions, though, and evaluations made after careful consideration of the historical reality of a situation are the antithesis of pre-judging.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #117
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Not necessary murder, no. More of an instinctive behavior of very distressed mammals. We're not going to stop it completely because it's almost as much feature as bug, but we can (and IMO, should) remove as many of the stressors that cause the behavior as we possibly can. As far as women that repeatedly abort despite having access to contraceptives, those are the among the ones we can't prevent without introducing fairly draconian measures, if then. I don't think policy should mostly be based on outliers, which I think (and hope) those women are.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-18249026
    34% and rising - not what I'd call outliers.
    In the animal kingdom, yes, it's rare and can be caused by stress. In humans, it's a question of convenience, rather than instinct. I think if we were going to call it anything as unreasoning as "instinct", we'd be locking these women up as criminally insane.

    The thing is, the more normalised it becomes, the more likely it is that women will resort to it with impunity. Someone here described it as a "medical procedure". It's not. It's the termination of a human life. And there will (ought to) be psychological consequences.
    It seems like it's kind of self-destructive and probably they are not in a good place, but that's just based on my own way of thinking and feeling which is in no way universal. Perhaps, if these things were kept track of, incentives for voluntary sterilization could be offered after a certain number of abortions? I don't know. That might be too much like eugenics, which I don't think is a good direction for society to take.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...abortions.html
    I'd favour mandatory sterilisation for any woman who had seven abortions. I think you lose the right to reproduce if you are that callous and stupid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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