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  1. #71
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Lateralus, I know it's not your intent, but the way you've picked one example out of >10 in the OP (incidentally, the one that was prefaced with "little things like") to dissect and invalidate, and all of your remarks about the other examples in her post are phrased as "those are awful, BUT" and then you go back to talking about the one you don't think is that bad (when it was acknowledged in the OP that it wasn't as bad as the others)... that is kind of exemplary of the issue here.

  2. #72
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Recently, on Facebook, I was debating with a guy on an issue, and when I started questioning where his grounds were for the argument he started attacking/insulting me directly. Fine and dandy.. the sexism comes in when my friend posted a funny article about a woman failing at waxing her lady parts, and the man (44 years old) commented saying "Does Kyu have a documentary on this too?" Attempting to take a cheap gab at me at the next opportunity he possibly got.. he just happened to do it in such a way as to demoralize, allude to, and comment on my female parts.. because if we're going to attack a woman, it might as well be about her body since that's the most obvious target for many men. When I told him it made me uncomfortable and it was creepy that an older man was commenting or alluding at all to my lady parts being on camera, here are the outraged responses I got.

    " no separation needed---but I think miss kyu needs to get a hold of herself ... I see that you getting increasingly angry, I will concede the fact, my bit of humor about the documentary might not have hit home. but I see the maturation process has not quite started yet. by the looks of it, much luck will be needed. I mentioned a serious inability for you to comprehend, in our little thread yesterday, I think its time for you to take that in account now??? or not??? and by the way--40's nowdays, is the old 20. lol fiar enough, I will leave you from any further discussions, but seriously, grow up a bit."

    I should grow up for not liking an older man making jokes about lady parts in my direction. I am simply too immature to comprehend his humor--if I were a real woman I would have enjoyed the joke. Somehow.

    " I gave you the benefit of the doubt before---I thought maybe you were just a misguided youth---it turns out you are an angry, slightly retarded young lady. go grow up now."

    When I told him to just stop talking about me and resist further comments towards me and if he continued to harass me that I would report him to facebook.

    "and oh no!!! did you just threaten the face book police----gzwd....get a clue!"

    All of that outrage just because I told him his joke was not funny to me and offended me. That is the problem with these compliments and jokes--they aren't really rooted in good nature and politeness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Where did you read that the guy called her names for not responding? If he did, my position would be different (as I have explained numerous times). But my position is based upon what he actually did, not on what people assume could have happened or what was maybe, possibly going on in his head. Without any sort of negative reaction, I don't agree that it was sexist. The words "you're too pretty to frown", alone, are not sexist. Uncomfortable? Maybe, but uncomfortable does not equal sexist.
    The US military comments that any act, verbal or non-verbal, that creates an environment of discomfort for the opposite sex, and any unwanted advances, comments on someone else's body, etc. create a hostile environment area of sexual harassment.

    What these women are defining as sexist is not one single act from an individual. It is the overwhelming amount of cases compiled towards every woman. Putting someone's looks as number 1 on a pedestal is dehumanizing. Pointing out the way someone looks constantly is dehumanizing. It is something someone sees as innocent enough, but the mentality behind it is deeply rooted in sexism--that women should be pretty, and that they should be smiling and allowing men to touch them and taking compliments from them and complying with those compliments.

    We do NOT know if one particular guy complimented us and we simply didn't like the compliment (like telling a guy he's skinny when he's been trying gain weight.. uncomfortable, definitely, but not sexist) but when women deal with this issue over a course of a lifetime, constantly getting backhanded compliments or straight up ANGER that that compliment wasn't taken as such instead of apologies, and how our looks are ALWAYS the thing be complimented on.. this is what piles up and accumulates into the sexism manifestation. It is not the individual compliment.. but the majority put together and the motivations behind it.

    If you cannot see it, I am sorry, but it is not something that I can explain further than that. But if so many women are saying it is sexist and not just merely misguided compliments, can you really still be so firmly planted in resisting the issue? Is it because you use compliments like that and dislike the fact that maybe all of these women you've been saying it to actually do not appreciate it? (that is not accusatory, but a genuine question.) I mean, they are the ones dealing with it afterall. Even if you truly feel NONE of these were rooted in male entitlement and dehumanizing subconsciousness, the fact that so many men are saying it to so many women and it is continuously voiced that it is uncomfortable and men are saying "so what it isnt sexist" isn't grounds for sexism? Is sexual harassment completely outside of sexism? I do not think it is. I think the two are very closely linked.
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  3. #73
    Warflower Nijntje's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Well, for people reacting to things they imagine might happen, but not to what is actually happening, that's on them. I asked numerous times for more context on that incident, but none was ever provided.
    Okay, background. Perhaps i should have just labelled this 'harassment' rather than sexism. However, i have faced sexism as well.

    My 'too pretty to frown encounter happened with a person on a bus stop moving into my personal space and saying "hey girl, why so glum, you're too pretty to be sad". To which i countered with that i didn't feel comfortable talking about it. to which i got a "why are you being difficult?" to which i replied that i didn't really feel like having a conversation, to which i was met with "fucking dumb slut" and the guy moving away.

    yelling shut out of cars and catcalls and yelling "show us your tits luv" i find degrading. When do men ever do this to each other? When do women yell "show us your cock" to a group of workers? Why in school was it appropriate to guide me to activities more becoming of a woman? Why is it appropriate on a train to surround a woman who is reading and has her ipod in and try and strike up a conversation she clearly has no interest in, only to then be labeled a frigid bitch when you wont speak back? Why is it okay for mothers (and yes, they can be sexist too) to tell their daughters rather than being a lawyer or a doctor she should just marry one? Why do other women put pressure on women to procreate and if god forbid they go back to work too soon they are deemed failures? Why is it a failure to have an epidural or drugs during childbirth (militant moms are scary). Why was it okay when i was 15 and had was drunk for my boyfriend to take me to the middle of an oval and afer some kissing hold me down, sit on my chest pin my arms down and shove his cock down my throat so i nearly gagged then brag to his friends about it?

    Terrible things happen to good people every day.
    Consequentially, I am not one of the good people.
    I am one of the terrible things.
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  4. #74
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by senza tema View Post
    That kind of comment is generally followed by a sense of outrage and anger when you don't respond to it positively and then you get called a dumb bitch for not smiling.

    Because, you know, the guy is entitled to a smile for paying attention to you.
    I just want to say one last thing about this scenario. When I think about a scenario like this, I imagine that an angry reaction would be based more in selfishness than sexism. I imagine someone who would react does so, not because he necessarily feels he is entitled to women, but because he feels entitled in general. Is this distinction important? Maybe, maybe not. But I think it's at least worth noting.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nijntje View Post
    Okay, background. Perhaps i should have just labelled this 'harassment' rather than sexism.
    Yeah, I find the attempts to distinguish between the two incredibly stupid because harassment often stems from sexist attitudes.

  6. #76
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    The US military comments that any act, verbal or non-verbal, that creates an environment of discomfort for the opposite sex, and any unwanted advances, comments on someone else's body, etc. create a hostile environment area of sexual harassment.

    What these women are defining as sexist is not one single act from an individual. It is the overwhelming amount of cases compiled towards every woman. Putting someone's looks as number 1 on a pedestal is dehumanizing. Pointing out the way someone looks constantly is dehumanizing. It is something someone sees as innocent enough, but the mentality behind it is deeply rooted in sexism--that women should be pretty, and that they should be smiling and allowing men to touch them and taking compliments from them and complying with those compliments.

    We do NOT know if one particular guy complimented us and we simply didn't like the compliment (like telling a guy he's skinny when he's been trying gain weight.. uncomfortable, definitely, but not sexist) but when women deal with this issue over a course of a lifetime, constantly getting backhanded compliments or straight up ANGER that that compliment wasn't taken as such instead of apologies, and how our looks are ALWAYS the thing be complimented on.. this is what piles up and accumulates into the sexism manifestation. It is not the individual compliment.. but the majority put together and the motivations behind it.

    If you cannot see it, I am sorry, but it is not something that I can explain further than that. But if so many women are saying it is sexist and not just merely misguided compliments, can you really still be so firmly planted in resisting the issue? Is it because you use compliments like that and dislike the fact that maybe all of these women you've been saying it to actually do not appreciate it? (that is not accusatory, but a genuine question.) I mean, they are the ones dealing with it afterall. Even if you truly feel NONE of these were rooted in male entitlement and dehumanizing subconsciousness, the fact that so many men are saying it to so many women and it is continuously voiced that it is uncomfortable and men are saying "so what" isn't grounds for sexism? Is sexual harassment completely outside of sexism? I do not think it is. I think the two are very closely linked.


    Exactly, kyuuei. One remark, in isolation? Sure, that might be a compliment. The thing is, it's never one remark in isolation- it's a constant fending-off of remarks, and then being made to feel like you're being ungrateful for not appreciating each complimenter as the precious snowflake he no doubt is. The issue is not the remarks themselves, it's the lack of understanding that we always have to be in defensive mode that makes this kind of reductive approach insensitive. That, and the insistence on basically refusing to acknowledge that.

  7. #77
    Senior Member Gish's Avatar
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    Can we talk about how sexist women are?

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I just want to say one last thing about this scenario. When I think about a scenario like this, I imagine that an angry reaction would be based more in selfishness than sexism. I imagine someone who would react does so, not because he necessarily feels he is entitled to women, but because he feels entitled in general. Is this distinction important? Maybe, maybe not. But I think it's at least worth noting.
    Sure, people are selfish and entitled. Entitlement doesn't arise out of nothing though. Somewhere along the line, these guys have developed expectations about what they are entitled to receive from women. The attitude seems too pervasive to me not to attribute it to sexism.

  9. #79
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Also, it doesn't have to be us vs. them. Men and women can be allies against sexism. But it requires listening to and acknowledging the experiences of the other, instead of picking them apart and insisting you know better what the person who harassed them meant (or that it even matters). I haven't seen that done in reverse here- it's not that we don't understand what the person who approached Njin meant. It's that what he meant doesn't really matter. Meaning well (in one's own mind) does not make it okay to force unwanted interaction.

  10. #80
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nijntje View Post
    Okay, background. Perhaps i should have just labelled this 'harassment' rather than sexism. However, i have faced sexism as well.

    My 'too pretty to frown encounter happened with a person on a bus stop moving into my personal space and saying "hey girl, why so glum, you're too pretty to be sad". To which i countered with that i didn't feel comfortable talking about it. to which i got a "why are you being difficult?" to which i replied that i didn't really feel like having a conversation, to which i was met with "fucking dumb slut" and the guy moving away.
    Well, in that case the guy is a d-bag. I wish you had given that extra context sooner.

    yelling shut out of cars and catcalls and yelling "show us your tits luv" i find degrading. When do men ever do this to each other? When do women yell "show us your cock" to a group of workers? Why in school was it appropriate to guide me to activities more becoming of a woman? Why is it appropriate on a train to surround a woman who is reading and has her ipod in and try and strike up a conversation she clearly has no interest in, only to then be labeled a frigid bitch when you wont speak back? Why is it okay for mothers (and yes, they can be sexist too) to tell their daughters rather than being a lawyer or a doctor she should just marry one? Why do other women put pressure on women to procreate and if god forbid they go back to work too soon they are deemed failures? Why is it a failure to have an epidural or drugs during childbirth (militant moms are scary). Why was it okay when i was 15 and had was drunk for my boyfriend to take me to the middle of an oval and afer some kissing hold me down, sit on my chest pin my arms down and shove his cock down my throat so i nearly gagged then brag to his friends about it?
    Women don't yell "show us your cock" because of how our species evolved. Sexually reproducing animals have one gender that pursues and another that is pursued. There are some species where the males are pursued.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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