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  1. #631
    Warflower Nijntje's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    The internet is a rough place for everyone, not just women. Deal with it.
    Translation:
    We own the internet and we make the rules, if we allow you to be here, you have to play by them or GTFO.

    Mmmmm. Smell that entitlement!
    Maybe this is the late 90's adage of "there are no females on the Internet"

    Terrible things happen to good people every day.
    Consequentially, I am not one of the good people.
    I am one of the terrible things.
    .



    Conclusion: Dinosaurs


  2. #632
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Our great city has the honour to call Rob Ford our mayor.

    His latest and greatest (and really, there are SOOOO many to choose from):

    The media was all over City Hall today, trying to get comment from the mayor on new revelations from the un-redacted Lisi warrant ITO. Of particular concern was the mayor’s comment to former staffer Olivia Gondek during the mayor’s St. Paddy’s Day 2012 rager.

    Staffer Isaac Ransom told police that Mayor Ford approached Gondek and said, “I’m going to eat you out” and “I banged your pussy.” He also allegedly told a City Hall security guard that he was going to "eat her box." I’m no lawyer, but this has got to qualify as sexual assault, beyond being penis-shrivelingly foul.

    The mayor’s defense, watertight by any legal standard, basically the core of spiritual sequel to Inherit The Wind: he already gets loads of pussy. “I’m happily married,” Rob Ford told reporters this morning, “I’ve got more than enough to eat at home.”

    In other news – well, in the same news – the mayor of Toronto just said “pussy” on live television. He's basically Mo from Slap Shot.
    http://www.nowtoronto.com/news/story.cfm?content=195324

    #enoughtoeat.

    That he certainly does, by the looks of it.

    /proud to be a Torontonian whose mayor is an elected misogynist


  3. #633
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    On this day, in 1989, a gunman entered Ecole Polytechnique in Montreal, Canada, and opened fire, killing 14 female engineering students while he shouted that feminists ruined his life.

  4. #634
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qrious View Post
    On this day, in 1989, a gunman entered Ecole Polytechnique in Montreal, Canada, and opened fire, killing 14 female engineering students while he shouted that feminists ruined his life.
    That's just....

    Well that broke my apathy pretty well.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  5. #635
    Member Cantus Firmus's Avatar
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    I read the first several pages of this thread but I've clearly missed a LOT of discussion here. I just want to lend my male voice of support and solidarity to the women in this thread. I'll never understand why people are so disrespectful and hateful to others, but it is decidedly not okay.

    And I will add that I have been sexually harassed by women, but it's rare and less threatening than the vast majority of the situations women have to deal with so frequently.

  6. #636
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nijntje View Post
    i wear no makeup and dress in jeans, t-shirts and boots. i am not what you would call 'provocative'.
    Are too! Now smile, pretty lady. *leers, gropes... then runs away*


    Just discovered this thread and read from the beginning, the interesting thing for me with being told crap like "you're too pretty to frown, smile" is when read as female that would be a common enough experience, it's annoying and dismissive because it automatically attempts to invalidate any reason someone may have to not smile, the reasons for not looking happy are irrelevant, the interesting part for me now is I still walk around life with the same facial expressions, I often look like I'm frowning, it's my 'thinking face' but no one tells me to smile now, they simply ask me why I looks so mad.

    It's the expectation for women to look pretty that makes it sexist, even if the person saying it doesn't intend to be sexist and it does come from women not only men, it's just not a comment thrown at men at all or at least as much. Ofc sexism goes both ways, I get glared at with discomfort if I interact with a child I don't know now, but dismissing the above as a nice comment is part of the issue, people don't seem to realise the double standards they hold for men v women. When a woman expresses being bothered or annoyed at being told to smile so she's pretty the typical reaction is she is unjustified or overreacting and that is part of the issue, girls are taught that attention from guys is something they should be grateful for and to be gentle with rejection and not bruise his ego or you're a bitch, so it's not unsurprising that there are people who would think that telling a girl she's too pretty to frown is actually a very nice compliment and totally miss how much it reduces her to something that is supposed to look pretty for others.


    Now let's all find wisdom in the Simpsons!

    Marge asks Lisa about her feelings. Lisa simply states she doesn't feel like smiling and Marge is adamant: "Well it doesn't matter how you feel inside, you know? It's what shows up on the surface that counts. That's what my mother taught me. Take all your bad feelings and push them down, all the way down, past your knees until you're almost walking on them. And then you'll fit in, and you'll be invited to parties, and boys will like you, and happiness will follow." This advice is rather uncharacteristic of Marge, but is quickly reconciled when Marge drops Lisa off at school wearing her best, fake smile. Lisa is immediately looked upon differently by a group of boys standing outside the school and is even invited to a party. One of the boys comments that Lisa may say "something weird." To which Lisa responds fakely: "Not me!" Seeing this, Marge is disgusted with herself. Marge grabs Lisa and speeds off once more to reconcile the mistake: "Lisa, I apologize to you, I was wrong, I take it all back. Always be yourself. If you want to be sad, honey, be sad. We'll ride it out with you. And when you get finished feeling sad, we'll still be there. From now on, let me do the smiling for both of us.''


    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    There are so few examples by men though - its almost like it doesn't happen to them, or something...

    Ok, I have an example. A male friend of mine who is emotionally and physically abused by his wife says he stays with her because if he left he'd be seen as "the bad guy" and be denied access to his children. That no one would believe him if he claimed to be a battered husband.
    It's not often recognised imo as what do you compare it with, plus with the exceptions of mens rights groups that are frequently also women hate groups the idea of complaining isn't well received. Talking of sexism against men would typically meet with a similar kind of reaction to this thread with women getting defensive about how the comments may be directed as an attack against them along with other men telling them to 'man up and stop bitching'.

    The biggest issues with sexism against men are the expectations to be 'manly', stoic and in charge, that showing emotion for a man is unacceptable and looked down on, that women make better and more nurturing parents so should get default custody, that all men are potential child molesters so should not be left alone with a child that isn't theirs and will be forced to move on a plane if they end up sitting next to an unaccompanied minor, and that they cannot be sexually or physically assaulted without wanting it or being deserving of humiliation at "letting" it happen. If a man hits a woman he's an asshole, if a woman hits a man it's funny.

    The thing I experience most now is comments from women about how any success I have in a work environment is due to inherent misogyny of the work force, I get what I get because I'm a man, not because I have worked for it and deserve it. It causes two issues imo, it takes away anything I've done to get where I am and reduces it to mere privilege, secondly it doesn't resolve any of the inequality that women do face in the work force as rather than showing how women are dismissed, it dismisses men and therefore improves nothing.


    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Here's a question for both genders: if someone of the opposite gender were to come up and ask for sex, would it feel like they were in control of the situation or that you were?
    Interesting question for people to consider.

  7. #637
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    It's not often recognised imo as what do you compare it with, plus with the exceptions of mens rights groups that are frequently also women hate groups the idea of complaining isn't well received. Talking of sexism against men would typically meet with a similar kind of reaction to this thread with women getting defensive about how the comments may be directed as an attack against them along with other men telling them to 'man up and stop bitching'.

    The biggest issues with sexism against men are the expectations to be 'manly', stoic and in charge, that showing emotion for a man is unacceptable and looked down on, that women make better and more nurturing parents so should get default custody, that all men are potential child molesters so should not be left alone with a child that isn't theirs and will be forced to move on a plane if they end up sitting next to an unaccompanied minor, and that they cannot be sexually or physically assaulted without wanting it or being deserving of humiliation at "letting" it happen. If a man hits a woman he's an asshole, if a woman hits a man it's funny.
    Sexism against men has the same roots as sexism against women: the idea that we have the right to expect different things from men and women, to hold them to different standards. We are all first and foremost human beings.

    As for Fia's question, I have always considered myself in control. The other person asks, and it's then up to me to agree or not.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #638
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    It's not often recognised imo as what do you compare it with, plus with the exceptions of mens rights groups that are frequently also women hate groups the idea of complaining isn't well received. Talking of sexism against men would typically meet with a similar kind of reaction to this thread with women getting defensive about how the comments may be directed as an attack against them along with other men telling them to 'man up and stop bitching'.

    The biggest issues with sexism against men are the expectations to be 'manly', stoic and in charge, that showing emotion for a man is unacceptable and looked down on, that women make better and more nurturing parents so should get default custody, that all men are potential child molesters so should not be left alone with a child that isn't theirs and will be forced to move on a plane if they end up sitting next to an unaccompanied minor, and that they cannot be sexually or physically assaulted without wanting it or being deserving of humiliation at "letting" it happen. If a man hits a woman he's an asshole, if a woman hits a man it's funny.
    Very valid points.

    As a female, I have witnessed sexism against males, and it makes me just as angry as when I see it targeted towards females.

    One, I still recall, vividly:

    When I was a teen, I worked one summer as a daycare assistant (getting to play all day? Hell yes!). There was a sweet little boy, around 4 years old. He was different than the other boys - more sensitive, liked more nurturing, imaginative play, like pretending to play house, rather than car racing with the other boys.

    The ECE leads would always steer him to play the "boys games". I would sneakily steer him, back, after asking which games he preferred, and him telling me, unequivocally, that he wanted to join the girls. One day, the other boys picked on him too much, throwing his toys, laughing, taunting him, and he started to cry. One of the ECE leads went up to him, and told him, "Stop it, don't cry. Boys are not supposed to cry."

    I was livid when I heard that. I remember going up to him, right after, and telling him, that boys and girls, do cry, when they're sad, when their feelings are hurt. That it was okay. That it didn't matter if he was a boy. It was okay to cry. But, that if he could, when he is sad, he should try to also learn to use his words.

    The whole stigma of "boys don't cry." And that's why you have men, who are forced to be emotionally supressed, and, the emotion has to come out some way, so it comes out in aggression, in anger. Destructive.

    Another instance, some friends of mine, a couple - I met him, through his wife. His wife is someone that I grew up with (we're family friends). They met in high school. He was really overweight. She used to tell our other friend, who she was closest to, that he disgusted her, but because he was so in love with her, idealized her, she knew that if she married him, she would have "the life". How horrid!! Well, they married. He, within 1 year of marriage, drastically lost weight. To the point that our friends who were in the medical profession, speculated that he probably had surgery. There was a brief period where he went into the "hospital", but it was all very hush-hush, no one was allowed to visit, and then a few months later, they resurfaced again. And he was 1/4 of what his weight used to be.

    We recently went on vacation together, as a large group. She has a drinking problem (we have told her this but she gets angry and refuses to acknowledge). Anyway, she is those typical "angry drunks". He, on the other hand, is a sweetheart, who is jovial, and social, and the life of the party. She, as we speculate, gets jealous of him, as she gets sidelined, while he gets all the attention (*her* friends are "liking" him more than her). So, she drinks. And gets belligerent. She hits him, knees him, punches him, calls him, "fat [he lost ALL that weight!!!], ugly, you disgust me, I hate you", and he laughs it off in our company. One time, she did it while we were all in a group, and I told her off. There were people there that weren't part of our immediate friends' circle, and I'm sure she was embarrased that I told her off in front of them (while it never bothered her, that her initial display was in front of those very same people). I remember pointing out to her, "If you were a guy and he was the girl, how do you think this shit that you do to him, would be interpreted?" Anyway, we got into a fight, and she became emotional telling us that we always side with him, but that we don't know what he does to her, that he's not that perfect, etc. The victim card. The female victim card.

    I remember telling her, "Abusing him isn't going to solve the problem, is it?" She didn't like that, stormed off to their hotel room. My other friend (ESTJ) and I were chilling in my balcony, later that night, and he came over. We had a heart-to-heart with him. He played it off like it was no big deal. The, "I'm a guy, it's not really abuse." We told him that he shouldn't have to put up with this, just because he's "the guy". That this, in fact, was abuse - physical and emotional. ENTP and ESTJ - we laid it out, straight. He, obviously, enables her, as he made up excuses for her, like she doesn't remember the next morning what she did. It's only when she drinks (DUH!). That we shouldn't be like this towards her - that we're HER friends first, not his. And, my friend and I told him, in no uncertain terms, that we were just as much his friend as hers, and even if we weren't friends with him, wrong is wrong. Anyway, they're likely to continue their dysfunctional relationship, and create spectacle after spectacle. We (the group of friends - all girls), have spoken to him separately, to her separately, to them together, telling him how we're viewing it from the outside, that she is abusive to him, and she needs to stop that shit, that he needs to stop tolerating that from her. Etc. Talking to a wall.

    But, breaks my heart, nonetheless.

  9. #639
    Member Cantus Firmus's Avatar
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    Answering Fia's question, as a male.

    While context matters, I'll assume this is some random person that I don't know. In that case, I would like they were in more control of the situation. I would answer no, but if someone is bold enough to ask that of a stranger, then I have no idea how they will react. I'm a man turning down casual sex, which isn't supposed to happen because gender stereotypes.

    But then again, I don't usually feel in control of any social interaction with a stranger. That doesn't mean it will necessarily be threatening.

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