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  1. #611
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    She has since become well-known among feminist Romantic scholars but the traditionalists want nothing to do with her. And the news wasn't much better at the departmental level- the power tripping old guard in the English department had to be carried kicking and screaming into the 20th century and start hiring non-whites and women (and, God forbid, non-white women). I let all this scare me off of English grad school, a decision I'm still conflicted about.
    I am sorry you were in a position where this seemed the best decision. It is hard to go against established practices, but each person who does so makes it a bit easier for the next. Not long ago in the span of human history, women were not even allowed to study at universities, much less be faculty; now we are the majority in many disciplines (though still not receiving parity in compensation and influence). This came about because some women in each generation threw caution to the winds and refused to take "no" for an answer.

    The STEM fields should be easier for women to make headway in in some respects, and harder in others. Criteria for success are often more objective, so it can be easier for a woman to show she is just as good as the men. There is also now much more outreach and explicit encouragement to young women starting out, that is not considered as necessary in the humanities. On the other hand, the persistent and significant underrepresentation of women in STEM fields, especially physical sciences and engineering, can make the environment seem unwelcome, and keep women from even considering these professions as viable choices.

    As I have mentioned on these threads before, I have worked in physics almost my entire career, including earning two graduate degrees, and have never felt handicapped by being female. My research group was all female for most of my doctoral program (except for our advisor), and the female students graduated and found jobs in much the same manner as the men. In my employment, I have received salary, research funding, and seniority on the same terms as men with similar credentials. The main bias in my organization favors managers over hands-on researchers like myself, something men and women alike struggle with at times.

    I have read plenty of articles like the one linked by Salomé above, and am familiar with the statistics. Statistics are not individuals, however, and individual experiences vary significantly, in ways and to a degree that would be simplistic to attribute solely to luck.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé's article
    The boys in my group don’t take anything I say seriously,” one astrophysics major complained. “I hate to be aggressive. Is that what it takes? I wasn’t brought up that way. Will I have to be this aggressive in graduate school? For the rest of my life?”
    Does this woman mistake assertiveness for agressiveness? Yes, if you want to succeed in most professions, you must be assertive, especially in those professions that are primarily concerned with facts, objectivity, and systems vs. human concerns and social interactions. If you want more than you were brought up to be, don't cling so to your upbringing; transcend it.

    Another said she disliked when she and her sister went out to a club and her sister introduced her as an astrophysics major. “I kick her under the table. I hate when people in a bar or at a party find out I’m majoring in physics. The minute they find out, I can see the guys turn away.” Yet another went on about how even at Yale the men didn’t want to date a physics major, and how she was worried she’d go through four years there without a date.
    I heard a male colleague complain about the same thing. He was even advised by a faculty member not to disclose his field of study (physics) in social settings. I don't rub people's noses in my field/profession, but have never shied away from mentioning it if it comes up in conversation. The only men (or women) it scares away are people I probably don't need to waste social energy on anyway.

    After the students left, I asked Urry if she was as flabbergasted as I was. “More,” she said — after all, she was the chairwoman of the department in which most of these girls were studying.

    I was dismayed to find that the cultural and psychological factors that I experienced in the ’70s not only persist but also seem all the more pernicious in a society in which women are told that nothing is preventing them from succeeding in any field. If anything, the pressures to be conventionally feminine seem even more intense now than when I was young.
    And women will continue to feel limited, and actually BE limited, as long as they continue to internalize those cultural and psychological factors, and feel they have to keep playing by those conventionally feminine rules. If that's what makes someone comfortable and happy, fine, but they can't expect to succeed in STEM fields, business/finance, law, and many other professional settings.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #612
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    More comments on the article above:

    For proof of the stereotypes that continue to shape American attitudes about science, and about women in science in particular, you need only watch an episode of the popular television show “The Big Bang Theory,” about a group of awkward but endearing male Caltech physicists and their neighbor, Penny, an attractive blonde who has moved to L.A. to make it as an actress. Although two of the scientists on the show are women, one, Bernadette, speaks in a voice so shrill it could shatter a test tube. When she was working her way toward a Ph.D. in microbiology, rather than working in a lab, as any real doctoral student would do, she waitressed with Penny. Mayim Bialik, the actress who plays Amy, a neurobiologist who becomes semiromantically involved with the childlike but brilliant physicist Sheldon, really does have a Ph.D. in neuroscience and is in no way the hideously dumpy woman she is presented as on the show. “The Big Bang Theory” is a sitcom, of course, and therefore every character is a caricature, but what remotely normal young person would want to enter a field populated by misfits like Sheldon, Howard and Raj? And what remotely normal young woman would want to imagine herself as dowdy, socially clueless Amy rather than as stylish, bouncy, math-and-science-illiterate Penny?
    "Remotely normal" young women don't become PhD physicists; "remotely normal" young men don't, either. That being said, the stereotypes in this show are extreme on all sides, and do a poor job of describing real men and women in these fields.

    The question took him aback. I asked if he ever specifically encouraged any undergraduates to go on for Ph.D.’s; after all, he was now the director of undergraduate studies. But he said he never encouraged anyone to go on in math. “It’s a very hard life,” he told me. “You need to enjoy it. There’s a lot of pressure being a mathematician. The life, the culture, it’s very hard.”
    How many times do women see gender bias in actions like this, where the professor or boss treats men and women the same, but the women are just not prepared for it, and interpret it the wrong way? I see the influence of internal vs. external locus of control.

    “Women need more positive reinforcement, and men need more negative reinforcement. Men wildly overestimate their learning abilities, their earning abilities. Women say, ‘Oh, I’m not good, I won’t earn much, whatever you want to give me is O.K.’ ”
    So, do we want gender-neutral treatment, or extra hand-holding and ego-stroking for women? If women honestly expect this, especially at the grad school and professional level, it really will make them seem less able and more demanding to employ. Better to evaluate everyone as objectively as possible. Cut those names off the resumes if it helps.

    Not long ago, I met five young Yale alumnae at a Vietnamese restaurant in Cambridge. Three of the women were attending graduate school at Harvard — two in physics and one in astronomy — and two were studying oceanography at M.I.T. None expressed anxiety about surviving graduate school, but all five said they frequently worried about how they would teach and conduct research once they had children.
    How many men worry about this? When women stop worrying, they will have one less thing to hold them back. The quote below makes sense as well:

    But having a family while establishing a career as a doctor or a lawyer isn’t exactly easy either, and that doesn’t prevent women from pursuing those callings. Urry suspects that raising a family is often the excuse women use when they leave science, when in fact they have been discouraged to the point of giving up.
    The best recipe for success I have seen so far:
    Four young women — one black, two white, one Asian by way of Australia — explained to me how they had made it so far when so many other women had given up.

    “Oh, that’s easy,” one of them said. “We’re the women who don’t give a crap.”

    Don’t give a crap about — ?

    “What people expect us to do.”

    “Or not do.”

    “Or about men not taking you seriously because you dress like a girl. I figure if you’re not going to take my science seriously because of how I look, that’s your problem.”

    “Face it,” one of the women said, “grad school is a hazing for anyone, male or female. But if there are enough women in your class, you can help each other get through.”
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #613
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    @Njinjte http://stoptellingwomentosmile.tumblr.com



    "The revolution will begin when women stop smiling".

  4. #614
    Paranoid Android Video's Avatar
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    How does one tell whether an act is misogyny or has nothing to do with gender? For instance, not being listened to as the only woman's voice in a group versus not being listened to because you speak too quietly? As per the second case, demure men aren't taken too seriously, either.
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  5. #615
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    @Njinjte http://stoptellingwomentosmile.tumblr.com



    "The revolution will begin when women stop smiling".
    @Nijntje

    (helping hand with the summoning, that's all, I promise)
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  6. #616
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    TY, I always get her name wrong.

  7. #617
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    TY, I always get her name wrong.
    Np

    It's the name of a dutch bunny in a children's book and the spelling is rather unique to the language, so it's a common problem, I've noticed.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  8. #618
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    From the "stoptellingwomentosmile" article:

    I learned that Boston has a huge number of students in one city due to the amount of colleges in and around the city. Elizabeth thought it was important to address that - how the culture of drinking in college impacts street harassment. She talked about being harassed during the day - in quiet, sober atmospheres. But also noted that if it were at night and the student men harassing had been drunk, the harassment would be much worse.
    I grew up in the Boston area and attended college in the city as well, and never experienced any of this. I wonder if the atmosphere has really deteriorated since then, and if so, why.

    Boston was very beautiful. It’s a quaint, conservative city with lovely houses and golden leaf scattered streets that went up and down hills.
    Conservative? Culturally perhaps in some ways, but politically it is the nexus of the much-derided Massachusetts liberalism.

    Everyday sexism for women in Egypt:
    http://www.indexoncensorship.org/201...sment-violence

    A study conducted in April by the Egyptian Center for Women’s Rights revealed that 99.3 percent of Egyptian women have experienced some form of sexual harassment.

    “In the absence of laws against sexual violence, we can only expect street harassment and sexual assaults to continue unchecked”, argued Khafagy.

    A bill on violence against women that was recently drafted by the National Council for Women and was under discussion in the now-disbanded Shura Council, the upper house of parliament has been shelved due to the political instability.

    Khafagy and other rights activists however, believe that legislation won’t be enough to tackle what they described as “a social scourge.”

    “The answer lies in changing people’s attitudes. Educating women about their rights and getting men to realize the extent of the harm they inflict on the women is the only way that we can change existing behavioural patterns,” insisted Kamel. “But change cannot happen overnight; it takes time.”

    For Egypt’s women victims of harassment, it cannot happen fast enough.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #619
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Makes you wonder what the 0.7% are doing right, huh?

    Or not.

  10. #620
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    You're right, she's not required to give an explanation, nor am I required to accept her claim without evidence. This is a forum where lots of issues are debated. What's makes this issue so special where it deserves special treatment? Nothing. Christians try to use the same strategy when talking about religion, that it shouldn't be debated because that's rude. I have a similar response for them. Nothing is sacred. Nothing.

    The internet isn't just a rough place for women, it's a rough place for everyone. But what happened here was hardly rough. No one threatened her or called her names. Someone dared to challenge one of her claims. Oh, the humanity!


    Did you really mean this? If a male boss fires a female employee, that's harassment if it was unwanted? If a female driver crashes into my car, is that harassment because she's a different gender? If an overweight woman sits next to me on the DC metro, with parts of her body spilling over into my seat, that's harassment because it's unwanted? (this last one has happened to me many times).


    I do find it sad, but it's not something I can change, so I just opt out. All I'm missing out on is small talk with random strangers.

    Are you talking about groping? If you are, then I would agree that a sense of entitlement is probably at the heart of their behavior. But if you're talking about just words, I don't know. I've already talked about poor socialization, but that has been dismissed as an explanation. I would hesitate to claim to know the motivation behind the actions of so many men I've never met. I could speculate that some men might have a particular motivation, but to claim that all men have a particular motivation? I like Carl Sagan's philosophy: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
    Please tell me this nitwit has been banned from this thread. Wow. Just wow. Now it clicks, the need for the safe zone (how sad it had to come to this.) I just found the existence of this thread and kudos to @Nijtenje for creating it. And to the assholes invalidating such personal experiences - fuck you!! If you don't understand how that makes you a misogynist, I feel truly sorry for the women in your lives. And if you are a woman yourself, then I feel sorry for the weight you must carry, of your self-hate!

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