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  1. #591
    As Long As It Takes.... Redbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    Exactly. Like your article stated. They feel entitled. Why do they feel entitled? Because it would seem that they think themselves greater than. They view women as objects or commodities. To be used when it suits them. Why do they think that way? It's in the mentality of the men that surround them. It's in how they see their mother and sisters treated. It's a sickness that no one cares enough to cure. Just as racism and homophobia is a sickness. The brain is just all fucked up and needs to have some intense therapy. Group madness of the worst kind. Sheep people. Mob mentality bs global madness. Wish there was something we could put in the water or some sort of gas bomb we could execute out to the masses to aliviate the world of it.
    Yes and yes. I didn't even mean to comment in this thread but this whole thing is pretty upsetting. I took a class over the summer dealing with gender, race, etc. I always felt but have never been able to articulate that much of what goes on is about entitlement. It's about not being able to see another as a human but only as a tool. Lack of empathy that causes one to view others as "what can I use you for?". When a person is reduced to this, there's no reason to care about their feelings, wants, needs...they're not even human so why fucking bother? I have no idea of why there are so many that lack empathy...lack of bonding in early childhood? Coupled with "works for me" when older so no need to change?

    I see @Coriolis comment about challenging this. That was something our instructor asked--What are you personally going to do with what you have learned in this class? That's important because you may not be able to do anything people who are truly twisted but you can do something by challenging cultural attitudes that create an atmosphere for it to thrive.

  2. #592
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    It's not just that people who ask the questions are accused of victim-blaming, though. It's also that people who ask the questions may not realize they are giving rapists' defense attorneys and other, more casual apologists ammunition to use against victims, and contributing to the perception that not following the advice is asking to be violated. These are real, practical effects of the proliferation of "tips to avoid getting raped." And in this way, the proliferation of these tips IS contributing to victim-blaming, even if the tipsters don't consciously intend it.

    http://www.salon.com/2011/12/14/how_...aming_victims/
    Pretty much this. Meanwhile, my question was genuine as im all for being informed on what works, as long as it does not get used against me
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  3. #593
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    Great article, @Ivy. Thank you!
    You hem me in -- behind and before;
    you have laid your hand upon me.
    Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
    too lofty for me to attain.

  4. #594
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    It's not just that people who ask the questions are accused of victim-blaming, though. It's also that people who ask the questions may not realize they are giving rapists' defense attorneys and other, more casual apologists ammunition to use against victims, and contributing to the perception that not following the advice is asking to be violated. These are real, practical effects of the proliferation of "tips to avoid getting raped." And in this way, the proliferation of these tips IS contributing to victim-blaming, even if the tipsters don't consciously intend it.
    So now we are going to blame the "tipsters" because someone misuses their advice? The logic in this article is so mixed up, I don't know where to begin. The article ends with the sensible statement, “We assess risk all the time, and women should be given the tools to do that accurately", after devoting its paragraphs to emotional arguments for how this does more harm than good. In fact, the author seems to think it is more important for a woman to be able to avoid blame if she is raped than to avoid the rape altogether.

    The example of the woman raped at home while sober and modestly dressed illustrates only the obvious, that rape can happen to anyone. (We are not, by the way, told that she was blamed at all.) It is hardly a defense of the terrible advice that "there’s no such thing as a ‘rape prevention tip’ for potential victims, because the only way to prevent being raped is to never be in the same space as a determined rapist". This is like saying the only way to prevent being hurt in a tornado is not to be where one touches down. Useless tautology.

    To consider a few more statements from the article:

    The notion that the way you dress influences your chance of being raped is just one of the ways that we delude ourselves into believing that rape happens to other women – women who aren’t as smart or cautious.
    This implies that women who wear revealing clothing are neither smart nor cautious - a stereotype right there. Women should be smart and cautious, however they choose to dress.

    it isn’t just the big, bad patriarchy that sustains victim blaming — it’s terrified women, too
    I agree, but not in the way the statement was probably meant. Many women just can't seem to wrap their heads around the idea that they are responsible for their own well-being. They were raised to depend on others for protection, chiefly men, and taking matters into their own hands can be a challenge. Equating being prepared and informed with victim blaming lets them off the hook, and just delays their growing up longer.

    doesn’t it create the false sense of security that they won’t be attacked if they avoid doing what this latest victim did (walk to work at 6:30 in the morning)? At the same time, you don’t want to throw your hands up and just say: Screw it, there’s nothing we can do to prevent this happening to us.
    That false sense of security is just one more result of failure to understand the reality of the risk. And this article presents no alternative to throwing up one's hands because there's nothing we can do.

    The problem is that “most ‘safety tips’ are beyond unhelpful — they’re dangerous.” That’s because they often aren’t based in fact but rather legend.
    And they always will be unless people have the courage to get the facts.

    You know what makes us seem vulnerable? Absorbing so many ‘safety tips’ that we’re afraid for our safety all the time.
    This is what I meant in an earlier post about awareness of risk factors making women fearful and paranoid vs. making men informed and prepared.

    Enough has been said about prevention measures that we should examine what those really are. Some are mentioned in this article: don't get drunk; don't walk alone (at night, in "bad" areas); don't dress "like a slut". Notice these are usually phrased as "don'ts". They are restrictions, limitations. I can see how they breed fear, and unproductive fear at that. The tips I am familiar with are more empowering: remain alert and aware of your surroundings; make sure your phone is working; know where security cameras are and use them; listen to your instincts; understand a potential attacker's weaknesses; be aware of escape routes; and the one "don't" - don't be polite. None of this has anything to do with what you are wearing, your sexual habits, when/where you are, or whom you might meet. None of it is a guarantee against rape, either, but authorities would be hard put to blame someone for NOT doing these things. ("That girl was really asking for it: her phone was dead, and she didn't even know there were security cameras in the parking lot . . . ")

    So, how do you prevent rape without blaming the victim? The article gives no answer, so I will try. We set political correctness and emotional arguments aside, and examine what measures are actually effective, and what factors actually contribute to risk. We distribute that information as broadly as possible. And we keep reminding authorities, rapists, and the victims themselves that the victim is never to blame.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #595
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    good points...especially about not being polite. i think that simple little thing is huge actually.

    super nice man comes to your door and just needs to make a phone call and you feel uncomfortable but wouldn't dare be so rude as to say no?! or...maybe the scene would embarrass you?? i bet that happens all the time.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  6. #596
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    See, now those are helpful!

    I also wonder about dogs..in a silly flash, i jokingly thought women should just all be assigned a guard dog- like a service animal for the disabled - as a deterrent for any one who wants to come near them, at home or outside. But i think, all silliness aside, that it might in fact be a good deterrent for those that are in fact dog lovers nowthat i think about it.
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  7. #597
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The gist is: (1) know your limits, in terms of personal space, touching, even conversation; (2) enforce them firmly, without worrying about being polite - better to apologize for overreacting than give a rapist the benefit of the doubt; (3) be aware, of your surroundings, resources, allies, and strengths/weaknesses.
    ....
    What then is your answer to the highlighted question? You seem not to like my suggestions; I would be happy to consider your alternatives.
    You have listed your "solutions" in this post and subsequent ones. I don't see how I've had any chance to like or dislike them. As they go, I think they are helpful recommendations. But they aren't solutions. Please provide evidence of how these measures reduce rape crime, if you have those statistics to hand. I imagine you must have, given your total commitment to this position?

    Attempts at prevention are not a cure in this case. You use the analogy of cancer, but again, it's an unfair one, because there are real things we can do to mitigate the risk of certain cancers, and we have a personal responsibility to do them. Rape isn't a mindless agent like cancer. It is the act of a self-willed individual. We shouldn't can't take responsibility for that. Also, I see your attitude as singularly self-involved. You seem to be suggesting that *if* it is possible to prevent becoming a victim yourself, this is good enough. No, it's not. Most people with any compassion care not only about their own well-being, but that of others too. If you fail to be a victim, someone else will become one. This will happen as long as there are rapists on our streets. So one of the things that urgently needs to change is tougher sentencing for sex crimes. Most sexual predators are repeat offenders. It will happen for as long as we refuse to protect the vulnerable in our midst. There will always be vulnerable people. That doesn't mean they somehow deserve to be exploited.

    Not only that, it's also an arse-backwards approach because what happens if we do find out that, for example, never drinking in company is something we can do to reduce the risk of getting raped? Are you going to be the one to advocate that all women become tee-total, or else be written off as "asking for it"? Don't you see how Shariah your thinking is? And don't you understand that the more we suggest there are things women ought to be doing to protect themselves, the more we blame-shift? Ivy has already pointed out how this is misused in the judicial system.

    The main thing we should all be doing is challenging rape culture wherever we encounter it. And not shaming or belittling others for doing so, as you have tried to do, repeatedly, in this thread.

    Perceiving it realistically entails considering the statistics, some of which already reflect distinctions of location, race, age, and other factors. No demographic is exempt from rape, but it is not evenly distributed across the population. This is true of most crimes, indeed many negative occurrences have strong elements of chance. We can predict them, to some degree, which means we can reduce the risk, to some degree.
    Black women are more likely to be raped than white women. (http://www.rainn.org/get-information...ssault-victims) If you are a black or mixed race woman, how, exactly, do you mitigate your risk of rape? Bleach your skin? Your attitude is absurdly privileged, even inhumane. It isn't objective, at all.

    People definitely seem to be reading into my comments meaning that is not there. It seems very clear to me. I'm not sure how detached analysis gets interpreted as "blame the victim". If anything, I am trying to remove all value judgments (except against the criminal) to focus purely on cause and effect: what works, what doesn't, and why.
    You only think you're detached. In fact, you have been judgemental and condescending, which is what people have reacted to. Repeatedly calling victims "stupid", does not constitute anyone's idea of "detached analysis", don't kid yourself. Your exclusive focus on victim and not perpetrator is pathological and symptomatic of what is wrong with society.

    So, how do you prevent rape without blaming the victim? The article gives no answer, so I will try. We set political correctness and emotional arguments aside, and examine what measures are actually effective, and what factors actually contribute to risk.
    In fact, you've ignored the only study posted in the thread (by me) that indicated risk factors for rape - all of which related to the behaviour of men, not women. So I suppose this undermines your whole argument.

  8. #598
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé
    Also, I see your attitude as singularly self-involved. You seem to be suggesting that *if* it is possible to prevent becoming a victim yourself, this is good enough. No, it's not. Most people with any compassion care not only about their own well-being, but that of others too. If you fail to be a victim, someone else will become one. This will happen as long as there are rapists on our streets. So one of the things that urgently needs to change is tougher sentencing for sex crimes. Most sexual predators are repeat offenders. It will happen for as long as we refuse to protect the vulnerable in our midst. There will always be vulnerable people. That doesn't mean they somehow deserve to be exploited.
    If I were truly self-involved, I would not bother trying to share my perspective here, and certainly would not have assisted with sexual assault prevention programs in my community for the past several years. You are right about sentencing, though. Convicted rapists should not be free to rape again.

    If by "solution" you mean some measure that will eliminate rape forever, there will never be a solution. Rape will be with us as long as other violent crime is with us, simply due to human nature. I certainly hope we can reduce its occurrence substantially so at least women are no more at risk than men; even better to reduce crime overall.

    I agree that the long-term approach is to change the attitudes that perpetuate rape, in rapists and in society as a whole. Each of us has a responsibility to contribute to this every day, in calling out sexist attitudes and behaviors, with our words and our actions. More formally, there is a plethora of rape prevention programs out there. A 2004 report funded by the U.S. Dept of Justice reviewed such Sexual Assault Prevention Interventions (SAPI), and concluded:

    A total of 59 studies were reviewed for this report, including 9 studies that reported evaluation results of SAPIs focusing on individuals with disabilities. The data provided in the summary descriptions of the SAPI studies highlight the methodological diversity across the studies. Although this diversity precluded a rigorous meta-analysis of the findings, the results of RTI’s analytic strategy indicate that 14 percent of the studies reported positive intervention effects at post- test or follow-up and 80 percent reported mixed results. The methodological limitations evident in the field of SAPI research should be kept in mind, along with other sources of bias previously mentioned; however, these findings suggest that the majority of SAPIs produce some positive attitudinal and behavioral change among program participants and that very few of the programs appear to adversely affect these outcomes.
    There were many limitations noted, such as that most programs were presented to college students, skewing the characteristics of the participants. The longest any participants were followed up was 4 years, and many were limited to one month. Changes in attitudes were accepted as an indicator of success in many studies, while others looked at actual behavior (did the participants commit or experience any sexual assaults in the study period). The good news is that no negative effects were observed. The bad news is that positive effects were limited and inconclusive. The approach still seems to have merit, but requires much additional study and is unlikely to reap short-term results.

    I support these efforts fully, but in the likely very long meantime, I want to know what to do should I find myself facing a possible rape situation. The advice I am familiar with and which I shared above comes from the sexual assault prevention training I have participated in, as well as from groups like RAINN. You cited some of their statistics, but ignored their advice:

    Avoiding dangerous situations
    Social situations
    Avoiding pressure

    These concise pages also remind the reader that "Sexual assault is a crime of motive and opportunity. Ultimately, there is no surefire way to prevent an attack. If you or someone you know has been affected by sexual violence, it’s not your fault. You are not alone. "

    Finally, for some statistics on which strategies work and which don't, see this study by National Resource Center on Violence against Women. It considers both prevention programs targeted at men and risk reduction programs targeted at women, with data and citations for each. It focuses on measures taken once a rape attempt is underway, but found some interesting by-products of the training, including:

    • Increased assertiveness
    • Improved self-esteem
    • Decreased anxiety
    • Increased sense of perceived control
    • Decreased fear of sexual assault
    • Enhanced self-efficacy
    • Improved physical competence/skills in self-defense
    • Decreased avoidance behaviors (restricting activities such as walking alone)
    • Increased participatory behaviors (behaviors demonstrating freedom of action)

    The last two especially counteract the misguided and limiting recommendations about what women wear and where/when/how they go out. The bottom line is that women who put up resistance, especially physical resistance, are significantly more likely to escape without being raped than those who do not. Moreover, they are no more likely to be injured than those who do not resist.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #599
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Interesting discussion about everyday sexism, especially street harassment:

    http://live.huffingtonpost.com/r/seg...a7601a680000d7

    One of the panelists, Tatyana Fazlalizadeh, is an artist whose current project is called "Stop Telling Women to Smile." She speaks at length in the beginning of the clip about the project. It's almost eerie how much of the content in the early pages of this thread is echoed in her remarks and those of the other panelists in this clip.

    I really appreciated the comments by Damon Young of Ebony, who says he used to say things like "smile for me, you're too pretty not to smile" to women who appeared to be upset. He was well-meaning, but realized after talking to women that he needed to stop. Rather than becoming defensive of his intentions and calling women bitches for not wanting to be told to smile in public, he simply stopped doing what he was informed was problematic and even wrote an article sharing that information with other men. That's a stand-up human being, IMO.

  10. #600
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Interesting discussion about everyday sexism, especially street harassment:

    I really appreciated the comments by Damon Young of Ebony, who says he used to say things like "smile for me, you're too pretty not to smile" to women who appeared to be upset. He was well-meaning, but realized after talking to women that he needed to stop. Rather than becoming defensive of his intentions and calling women bitches for not wanting to be told to smile in public, he simply stopped doing what he was informed was problematic and even wrote an article sharing that information with other men. That's a stand-up human being, IMO.
    No one is perfect. It is what we do when we come face to face with one of those imperfections that is important.

    It is interesting that a few pages ago, Amargith wrote about sexual harrassment:

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I find that it gets worse if you are noticeably chipper or happy and smiling while outside your house -
    So, if you are happy and cheerful you're asking for it. If you aren't, you are told you should be. This just illustrates the drawbacks of putting too much stock into what other people say or think of you.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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