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  1. #571
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    I think the allegorical response would be that even if you've locked you door they will still sometimes just break in through the window. Meaning sometimes precaution just isn't enough, sometimes you are out numbered or drugged or just have the bad luck of a wrong turn or not detecting violence in a person.
    All true, but not a justification to dispense with precautions. We often don't know whether someone's deliberate efforts prevented a crime, which makes it hard to tell what works and what doesn't. I lock my door every time I leave. How many burglaries has that prevented? I would have to leave my door unlocked for some lengthy period for comparison, and I am unwilling to accept that risk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    Most people are saying we should teach precaution. They're arguing that non-being a victim of rape doesn't mean you've done anything different or better than someone who has been raped. There is a lot of circumstance to it. Like the example of people who forget to lock their doors and still don't get robbed. It's by chance. If they did take precaution there is still the chance the a theif will come who is willing to use for force or a different tactic than you accounted for.

    I think that's what people, at least myself, take issue with. The idea that rape victims or their parents failed to do something and that reaulted in their rape. Basically is the idea that "they didn't do enough to stop it". When in reality they may be acting just as their neighbors but have the misfortune of being in a perpetrators path
    The fact is, they didn't stop it. This is not a moral judgment, though, merely an observation of cause and effect. Other people have been in the perpetrator's path and have stopped it, perhaps also by luck, perhaps through preparation or some deliberate decision. If people who become crime victims do all the same things as people who do not, that is a good argument for dispensing with prevention measures, since they don't change the odds at all.

    Most crime prevention training, however, indicates that criminals take advantage of opportunity. If your house is well-secured, a thief will probably (not guaranteed) move on to the neighbor's, unless there is something specific in your house he really wants. By taking sensible precautions, you reduce the risk, but do not eliminate it. I'm not sure what is so difficult about this idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    It's likely I missed some posts but it may be possible that coriolis is speaking from a purely detached perspective meaning simply to say that one should take every measure possible to protect themself without intending to blame the victim when such measures failed.

    Or am I missing something? Is that your stance coriolis? Or do you honestly think its often the unprepared, naive and ignorant being victimized?
    Both. I keep repeating the highlighted, but you are the first one who seems actually to register it. I don't think one can take every measure possible to protect oneself. To use my burglary example, it might be reasonable to lock the doors, keep the bushes pruned, keep valuables out of sight, and join the neighborhood watch. I could also get a dog, install a security system, move to a gated community, even build my own walled compound. Each of these takes more money/effort, and those costs must be weighed against how much it will reduce the risk. In a high crime neighborhood, maybe a dog and a security system are worth it. Yes, it is an analysis best done with detachment, and as many facts as one can get.

    That being said, criminals often do prey on the naive, the ignorant, and the unprepared. They are simply easier targets than people who are street-smart, informed, and prepared. Again (how many times do I have to say this?) nothing is absolute; it is a matter of risk, which is a combination of severity and probability. If I don't take reasonable measures to avoid crime that may make me naive or even stupid, but the criminal bears all the guilt.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #572
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    right for sure no i get that and thought as much after i hit submit...about the preparedness bit.

    all of that is agreed upon it would seem...i think some are "hearing" blame or superiority in your words but i think it's just your way...just...a detached sort of way.

    and is basically just sensible that one take measures...but it doesn't change the fact that it shouldn't be that way and is never the victims "fault"

    it's never the woman's fault if she gets raped...it just truly never is. you have to know that...even if you think there's things she could've done differently. the fact is she shouldn't have to and has every right to go out in the world and be whoever she is just like everyone else.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  3. #573
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    right for sure no i get that and thought as much after i hit submit...about the preparedness bit.

    all of that is agreed upon it would seem...i think some are "hearing" blame or superiority in your words but i think it's just your way...just...a detached sort of way.

    and is basically just sensible that one take measures...but it doesn't change the fact that it shouldn't be that way and is never the victims "fault"

    it's never the woman's fault if she gets raped...it just truly never is. you have to know that...even if you think there's things she could've done differently. the fact is she shouldn't have to and has every right to go out in the world and be whoever she is just like everyone else.
    thank you for saying what i couldnt word and bringing the two viewpoints together on the same page.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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  4. #574
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    http://www.npr.org/blogs/parallels/2...-n-survey-says

    Heard this on the radio last night and was reminded of this thread.
    You hem me in -- behind and before;
    you have laid your hand upon me.
    Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
    too lofty for me to attain.

  5. #575
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Ugghh that's sickening isn't it nicolita?
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  6. #576
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    Totally. I think it's good to start talking about why people rape rather than why people get raped. It's pretty universal that its not the victim's fault, so why keep studying the victims?
    You hem me in -- behind and before;
    you have laid your hand upon me.
    Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
    too lofty for me to attain.

  7. #577
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    all of that is agreed upon it would seem...i think some are "hearing" blame or superiority in your words but i think it's just your way...just...a detached sort of way.
    People definitely seem to be reading into my comments meaning that is not there. It seems very clear to me. I'm not sure how detached analysis gets interpreted as "blame the victim". If anything, I am trying to remove all value judgments (except against the criminal) to focus purely on cause and effect: what works, what doesn't, and why.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    it's never the woman's fault if she gets raped...it just truly never is. you have to know that...even if you think there's things she could've done differently. the fact is she shouldn't have to and has every right to go out in the world and be whoever she is just like everyone else.
    What you describe is an ideal, not reality. Yes, women (and men) should be able to go anywhere, any time, presenting themselves as they wish. The fact is that right now, that is not the case. The question then becomes what to do about it, while we wait for your long-term solutions to be implemented and bring us closer to that ideal. You mentioned yourself that might take 50 years or more; a not unrealistic estimate.

    In this interim, women can pretend the ideal is already reality. They can go where they like, when they like, as they like. This is a good strategy, to a point - that point being that the risk of rape is still real and significant, and they need to remain mindful of that. This is the difference between being confident and pushing the envelope, and being foolhardy and not even bothering to calculate the risks. We consider risks and make provisions for them all the time. We buy insurance, get vaccines, keep an emergency kit in the car, and yes, lock our doors. Perhaps it is just easier to think objectively about these other hazards than about sexual assault. It is a very emotional topic, but getting emotional about it does not help to prevent it.

    Quote Originally Posted by nicolita View Post
    Totally. I think it's good to start talking about why people rape rather than why people get raped. It's pretty universal that its not the victim's fault, so why keep studying the victims?
    Because ultimately the only person whose behavior one can control is one's own. It all depends on whether you are interested in developing a thorough understanding of rape as a tragic part of our culture, or a practical way to keep people from becoming victims. They are related, in that understanding why people rape is useeful, both in raising or rehabilitating people not to rape, and even in understanding better how to deal with an actual assault.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #578
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicolita View Post
    Totally. I think it's good to start talking about why people rape rather than why people get raped. It's pretty universal that its not the victim's fault, so why keep studying the victims?
    Exactly. Like your article stated. They feel entitled. Why do they feel entitled? Because it would seem that they think themselves greater than. They view women as objects or commodities. To be used when it suits them. Why do they think that way? It's in the mentality of the men that surround them. It's in how they see their mother and sisters treated. It's a sickness that no one cares enough to cure. Just as racism and homophobia is a sickness. The brain is just all fucked up and needs to have some intense therapy. Group madness of the worst kind. Sheep people. Mob mentality bs global madness. Wish there was something we could put in the water or some sort of gas bomb we could execute out to the masses to aliviate the world of it.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  9. #579
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    For real bring on some future shit where we inject everyone with an anectdote to hatred and entitlement. Infuse them with empathy and love.

    Ha there ya go that's my solution. Scientists get to work!
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  10. #580
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    Exactly. Like your article stated. They feel entitled. Why do they feel entitled? Because it would seem that they think themselves greater than. They view women as objects or commodities. To be used when it suits them. Why do they think that way? It's in the mentality of the men that surround them. It's in how they see their mother and sisters treated. It's a sickness that no one cares enough to cure.
    So, what do we do about it, right now? A big part of the solution is to confront all those smaller instances of sexist behavior we see every day (back to the OP). This won't keep you or me from being raped tomorrow, but it will whittle away at that sense of entitlement, and work on correcting that erroneous view of women, one woman and one encounter at a time.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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