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  1. #561
    Junior Member Dufflepud's Avatar
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    Everyone should be taught to respect everyone as equals, and everyone should also be taught to defend themselves, and how to detect a sketchy situation. Obviously it's a much bigger issue for Women, as 9/10 rapes in the US are committed against Women, but considering the numbers, 1/10 is still a very, very significant number which should be ignored when educating people so as to prevent sexual assault.
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  2. #562
    A Mystery Jacques Le Paul's Avatar
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    @Lady X

    I agree with you on a few of your points that you have made.

    As I agree, it is not enough to say something is bad or to think a way about something. One needs to mold one's mind about it.

    i think the whole point is just that if men and boys were raised to respect women and think of them as their equals they would not develop this need to lord their power over them or to dominate them and take what they want or keep them down etc.
    Men, women, boys and girls should be taught to respect each other in my opinion as well. I do ask you however, what do you mean by thinking as equals?

    Equals in skill at a task? Intellect? Artistic Ability?

    The point I'm attempting to convey here, is that I found that to be a bit vague. So I'm simply asking you to clarify for me.

    Because pardon me for asking, but I've seen hundreds of people (Men and Women) who do respect each other, but they see others as lesser then them, while considering some equals.
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  3. #563
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I agree that this is a good long-term approach. How long do you think it will take for it to be implemented and significantly impact the levels of sexual assault? What do you recommend women do in the interim, while waiting for the effects to be felt? How would you advise women and men to deal with the remaining (hopefully small) risk of assault, sexual and otherwise?
    it's hard to say because we're currently at the point where this mindset is labeled negatively...like you want me to raise my son to be a wuss or pansy boy?? and the only thing we have to compare this sort of global mind shift is that of racism which we all know is still very prevalent...but at least a large majority of people would view racism negatively...and actively speak out against it. so the shift happens when we as a society essentially shame the racist...they are outcast...deemed close minded etc. enough people have to want it to change. i don't know how to make that happen in a society full of racists and homophobes...i feel such a deep sense of embarrassment for our uncivilized culture.

    but...it feels as though the answers lie in education. education that goes beyond basic academics to perhaps undo some of the mistakes the parents have made. maybe schools make the parents attend some of these classes. they already do offer different types of parenting classes at the schools so there could be a focus on this. so much of it is just simply due to ignorance. i don't think most of it is mean spirited in nature...they just model what they were shown so the cycle continues.

    the president ought to speak out against it much in the same way he might about bullying...just put a global awareness out there and maybe one by one there will be shift but i think it could take 50 years or more if we look at racism and homophobia as a guide. in the meantime we ought to stand up for ourselves and teach our children to in every sense of the word while continuing to protect ourselves in the way we do against all crimes.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  4. #564
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I am asking whether a correlation exists - big difference. In the case of children you mention, the differences would lie with their families, or even the community. Direct parental supervision is one factor, but not the only one, and perhaps not the most important.

    The only situations I can evaluate myself are those of people I know in person. For instance, the 16-yo daughter of a friend was recently raped by a family "friend". In hindsight, her parents point out several things that they feel (their judgment, not mine) should have made them suspicious. What makes one person/family notice and act on such clues, while another does not? Individual situations often show us best what went wrong. We can only learn what "goes right" in the aggregate, since we are essentially looking for what happens in the absence of the specified outcome.

    Do you honestly think who is raped and who isn't is purely a matter of chance? That is a rather fatalistic view, and implies there is nothing one can do at all to prevent it.

    I understand you are "asking I there is a correlation". I already posted why your idea of a correlation makes no sense.


    Yes I think rape, for the victim, is matter of chance. The chance being in the vicinity of a rapist in an inopportune moment. Every crime is a matter of circumstance. You can take precautions and they help, something I've already free with you on. But even with precautions women get raped. Case in point women who end having their own mace used on them. There are plenty of people who take precautions and are still victimized. The idea that the distinctions between victims and non-victims is some sort of action on their part of their parents part is back door victim blaming.

    Also, how can something be both chance and fate?

  5. #565
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaqcues Le Paul View Post
    @Lady X

    I agree with you on a few of your points that you have made.

    As I agree, it is not enough to say something is bad or to think a way about something. One needs to mold one's mind about it.



    Men, women, boys and girls should be taught to respect each other in my opinion as well. I do ask you however, what do you mean by thinking as equals?

    Equals in skill at a task? Intellect? Artistic Ability?

    The point I'm attempting to convey here, is that I found that to be a bit vague. So I'm simply asking you to clarify for me.

    Because pardon me for asking, but I've seen hundreds of people (Men and Women) who do respect each other, but they see others as lesser then them, while considering some equals.
    yeah sure equals...just for a glimpse into my brain i kinda view people as genderless spiritual beings living an insane physical existence.

    so...yes we often have different strengths and weaknesses based on our physicality...but where it counts as human beings we are equal. deserving of equal care and consideration. no one is entitled to a greater power. no one should be expected to submit. no ones voice should be heard louder or given more weight.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  6. #566
    A Mystery Jacques Le Paul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    yeah sure equals...just for a glimpse into my brain i kinda view people as genderless spiritual beings living an insane physical existence.

    so...yes we often have different strengths and weaknesses based on our physicality...but where it counts as human beings we are equal. deserving of equal care and consideration. no one is entitled to a greater power. no one should be expected to submit. no ones voice should be heard louder or given more weight.
    Yeah I agree with this, I was just pointing out that people will often think lesser of others. Sometimes they notice, other times they don't.

    Thanks for elaborating further none the less
    Always forward, never back!

    "I always love talking to people and hearing their story. People always have a good life story to tell ya know?"



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  7. #567
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    I really think that part of the problem is that men and women alike feel better telling themselves that rape is significantly avoidable or at least predictable. It isn't something that just happens -- there are warning signs, measures you can take, risky behaviours etc. This makes it seem less personally threatening.

    I think women can cling to this idea harder than men because they are more at risk and therefore more in need of the comfort of believing that raped women did something wrong. That it isn't likely to happen to them because of their lifestyle, or assertiveness, or intelligence, or character, or ability to read people, or sensibleness, or dress code, or whatever. Men too like to think that the women in their lives are safe for the same reasons. Which I suspect is part of the reason the spotlight is so often turned on the victim. What did she do wrong, that this 'avoidable' risk was not avoided? Find something: feel safer. And it's always possible to find something. The extreme end of this is vilifying the victim, or denying the rape altogether.

    Until we perceive the problem realistically we don't have much hope of dealing with it.

  8. #568
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    Also, how can something be both chance and fate?
    My point is that it is completely out of one's control: if it is going to get you, it will get you, and there is nothing you can do about it. I don't believe this about rape or any other crime, though I don't have the data at hand to make a strong case for it. Becoming a crime victim is a risk, similar to getting cancer, or losing your home in a natural disaster. We can and should do what we can to reduce those risks, but we will never completely eliminate them. There are no absolutes.

    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    I really think that part of the problem is that men and women alike feel better telling themselves that rape is significantly avoidable or at least predictable. It isn't something that just happens -- there are warning signs, measures you can take, risky behaviours etc. This makes it seem less personally threatening.

    I think women can cling to this idea harder than men because they are more at risk and therefore more in need of the comfort of believing that raped women did something wrong. That it isn't likely to happen to them because of their lifestyle, or assertiveness, or intelligence, or character, or ability to read people, or sensibleness, or dress code, or whatever. Men too like to think that the women in their lives are safe for the same reasons. Which I suspect is part of the reason the spotlight is so often turned on the victim. What did she do wrong, that this 'avoidable' risk was not avoided? Find something: feel safer. And it's always possible to find something. The extreme end of this is vilifying the victim, or denying the rape altogether.

    Until we perceive the problem realistically we don't have much hope of dealing with it.
    Perceiving it realistically entails considering the statistics, some of which already reflect distinctions of location, race, age, and other factors. No demographic is exempt from rape, but it is not evenly distributed across the population. This is true of most crimes, indeed many negative occurrences have strong elements of chance. We can predict them, to some degree, which means we can reduce the risk, to some degree.

    I am not sure why it is so hard, though, to separate the ideas of guilt/blame and causality. I'm not the only one who has used the example of the person who has his house burglarized after leaving the doors unlocked. The thief bears all of the guilt, but in most cases, the victim could have prevented the crime by locking his doors and taking other reasonable precautions.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #569
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    My point is that it is completely out of one's control: if it is going to get you, it will get you, and there is nothing you can do about it. I don't believe this about rape or any other crime, though I don't have the data at hand to make a strong case for it. Becoming a crime victim is a risk, similar to getting cancer, or losing your home in a natural disaster. We can and should do what we can to reduce those risks, but we will never completely eliminate them. There are no absolutes.


    Perceiving it realistically entails considering the statistics, some of which already reflect distinctions of location, race, age, and other factors. No demographic is exempt from rape, but it is not evenly distributed across the population. This is true of most crimes, indeed many negative occurrences have strong elements of chance. We can predict them, to some degree, which means we can reduce the risk, to some degree.

    I am not sure why it is so hard, though, to separate the ideas of guilt/blame and causality. I'm not the only one who has used the example of the person who has his house burglarized after leaving the doors unlocked. The thief bears all of the guilt, but in most cases, the victim could have prevented the crime by locking his doors and taking other reasonable precautions.

    I think the allegorical response would be that even if you've locked you door they will still sometimes just break in through the window. Meaning sometimes precaution just isn't enough, sometimes you are out numbered or drugged or just have the bad luck of a wrong turn or not detecting violence in a person.

    Most people are saying we should teach precaution. They're arguing that non-being a victim of rape doesn't mean you've done anything different or better than someone who has been raped. There is a lot of circumstance to it. Like the example of people who forget to lock their doors and still don't get robbed. It's by chance. If they did take precaution there is still the chance the a theif will come who is willing to use for force or a different tactic than you accounted for.

    I think that's what people, at least myself, take issue with. The idea that rape victims or their parents failed to do something and that reaulted in their rape. Basically is the idea that "they didn't do enough to stop it". When in reality they may be acting just as their neighbors but have the misfortune of being in a perpetrators path

  10. #570
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    It's likely I missed some posts but it may be possible that coriolis is speaking from a purely detached perspective meaning simply to say that one should take every measure possible to protect themself without intending to blame the victim when such measures failed.

    Or am I missing something? Is that your stance coriolis? Or do you honestly think its often the unprepared, naive and ignorant being victimized?

    I can agree that parents need to protect their children from relatives they have some stomach turning suspicion about even if there's no proof that its necessary... Or teach them to be wary of strangers or to not put themselves in vulnerable situations on dates etc

    Yes unfortunately all that needs to happen but it will not prevent it any more than the person who gets lung cancer and has never smoked anything a day in their life.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

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