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  1. #551
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Do you feel, @Salome, that anything short of women being free to act with the same freedom as men enjoy due to their physiology is acceptable? (To me this seems ideal, but unlikely to happen
    Nothing short of total equality is acceptable to me. Why is it unlikely? If everyone maintains that attitude it MAKES IT SO. I refuse to give in to that kind of defeatism. That you feel this way just says there is still much work to do. I think the greatest obstacle we currently face re gender equality is the apathy of modern woman. But I can see that apathy slowly changing. Fifty years ago, who would have predicted we’d have a black president in the White House? Change happens, all it takes is sufficient will. Women have to take the lead, not in fretting for their own safety, but in challenging the Rape Culture that threatens their liberty. Far too many look the other way, or worse.

    Or, are you suggesting that if we feel sexual assault can be reduced by what women do, it not only restricts their freedom, but it puts the blame on them if something does happen, rather than on the guilty party and those attitudes must be changed.
    Feelings don’t come into it. Let’s deal in facts. What is it that actually reduces sexual assault? Is it restricting the movement of women (even were that practicable) or restricting what they wear? If that were the case, wouldn’t you expect there to be very low rates of sexual assault in a place like Saudi Arabia, where women have almost no freedom? In fact, it has one of the highest rape scales in the world. We will not prevent rape by restricting women's freedom. WE WILL NOT PREVENT RAPE BY RESTRICTING WOMEN'S FREEDOM.

    In fact, as this map demonstrates, the opposite is actually true.


    We might prevent rape by restricting the freedoms of rapists, but fuck, let’s not get radical or anything.

  2. #552
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    Most people are able avoid rape up until the point that they get raped. Not having been raped doesnt mean its some how related to you as a perso, but a variety of circumstances.
    This is tautological, and tells us nothing. Anyone can get raped, just as anyone can have their house burglarized. The question is how long does one go without it happening, and how many close calls does one have. See additional comments below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    The third bit you've just made up. Not to be combative but you aren't supporting it, just painting men as all tactical with nothing to back it up.
    It is not made up, but is anecdotal, just as much of the input on this thread has been. As I specified, it also represents the average, or general impression from men, not an absolute about every man vs. every woman. Rigorous studies would be ideal, but we can still learn much from each others' experiences. This has been the balance of my experience of the people I have known in my life. You are right that feeling vulnerable will lend a woman a greater awareness, but this is too often a fearful awareness rather than a useful one. In other words, that everpresent awareness leads to fear and insecurity, rather than to taking deliberate note of the details of their circumstances in a way that might be useful. I'm not making this up, either. It is discussed as part of the sexual assault prevention training I participate in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    I think the suggestion that some people "know how to not get raped" is wrong. One because there are variety of way rape can come into play. Strangers, friends, figures of authority. Everyone is vulnerable to some category or rape.

    And as an example of where I think you argent breaks down. My best friend was raped by a neighboor as a child. A close friend was molested by her grandfather as a child. I was not raped or molested as a child despite having much less parental supervision. Was there something I did, or something about me that prevented my assault? Was their something they did that invited or even didn't prevent it. I don't think their is. Unfortunately circumstances worked in my favor and not in theirs.
    You seem to be reading into my comments an "all or nothing" approach which isn't there. Rape is a risk, not a certainty, and as you say, is heavily dependent on circumstances. It is those circumstances that a potential victim can often influence, much like the homeowner who locks her doors upon leaving. Yes, anyone can potentially be raped, even men. The risk is lower for some groups and individuals, partly through circumstance (e.g. where they happen to live), partly through deliberate actions. It won't always be enough, just as with the thief determined to break into YOUR house, and no one else's.

    With children it is a bit different, since they have even less control over their circumstances than adults, as your example illustrates. Parents still try to coach them, teaching them about "stranger danger", what to do if lost in a public place, what is acceptable and unacceptable touching, etc. They don't do this because they feel it will be the children's fault if Uncle Ned molests them. Just the opposite: they want them to go running as soon as he tries, because they know it's wrong, and they know they will be believed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
    Not being in the wrong place at the wrong time is only a prevention method in the most superficial of senses, without having any real sort of merit or meaning behind it.

    I mean, how does one really precaution themselves against rape? Wear a chastity belt? I mean other than learning to physically defend one's self in the event of an attack, what can you really do? Furthermore, how does one defend or prepare themselves mentally for something like that?

    There's just so much more than encompasses rape than walking down a dark alleyway at night and being snatched by some some anonymous shadowy figure. Your post just seems to reduce it down to an issue of physicality.
    The people who are reducing it to physicality are those who suggest men can walk anywhere with impunity just because they tend to be larger and stronger. Not being in the wrong place at the wrong time is the least of it, because it is so obvious. What to do if you have to be in the wrong place, or in a place that might suddenly become the wrong place, is the challenge. I'm not going to go through all the specifics in the training, but it does emphasize the threat from people we know. The gist is: (1) know your limits, in terms of personal space, touching, even conversation; (2) enforce them firmly, without worrying about being polite - better to apologize for overreacting than give a rapist the benefit of the doubt; (3) be aware, of your surroundings, resources, allies, and strengths/weaknesses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Nothing short of total equality is acceptable to me. Why is it unlikely? If everyone maintains that attitude it MAKES IT SO. I refuse to give in to that kind of defeatism. That you feel this way just says there is still much work to do. I think the greatest obstacle we currently face re gender equality is the apathy of modern woman. But I can see that apathy slowly changing. Fifty years ago, who would have predicted we’d have a black president in the White House? Change happens, all it takes is sufficient will. Women have to take the lead, not in fretting for their own safety, but in challenging the Rape Culture that threatens their liberty. Far too many look the other way, or worse.
    All this is valid, especially the highlighted. It is not enough to think it, though, one must also act on it. Obama was elected because people actually went to the polls and voted for him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Feelings don’t come into it. Let’s deal in facts. What is it that actually reduces sexual assault? Is it restricting the movement of women (even were that practicable) or restricting what they wear? If that were the case, wouldn’t you expect there to be very low rates of sexual assault in a place like Saudi Arabia, where women have almost no freedom? In fact, it has one of the highest rape scales in the world.
    What then is your answer to the highlighted question? You seem not to like my suggestions; I would be happy to consider your alternatives.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #553

  4. #554
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    @Coriolis

    I wasn't arguing that you should teach precaution. What I'm saying that your assertion that certain people can teach other how to not be raped is ridiculous and very self aggrandizing. How long till it's happens? How many close calls? A very cautious person can still find them self in a situation say with someone they thought the could trust who takes advantage of them. Again I agree that taking precaution is good but the idea that rape victims haven't learned the strategies to avoid rape places undue responsibility on victims and undue esteem on people who haven't been rape victims.

    My opening statement was intentional. Who ever feels "qualified" to dole out rape prevention advice with the idea that, by their own power they have avoided rape and will continue to do so, places unsupportable esteem on them selves as non-victims. I think most people think they will avoid rape until it happens to them. So how can anyone feel qualified to dole out that advice when it is always possible for them to be raped in the future?

    Can you teach awareness and defense? Yes. Will it prevent some rapes? Yes. However that will not prevent all forms of rape (for instance gang rapes or roughie rapes or rape commuted by trusted people on children). The idea that non-victims have taken precautions and victims haven't. Just isn't true. Some precautions people are rape and some aren't. Some careless people avoid rape and some don't.

    My issue isn't with teaching precaution. I said in a previous post I agree. My issue is with your peecieved sense of superiority to people who have become victims, and the unfouded idea that this is because of some anti-rape knowledge and not circumstance.

  5. #555
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    My issue isn't with teaching precaution. I said in a previous post I agree. My issue is with your peecieved sense of superiority to people who have become victims, and the unfouded idea that this is because of some anti-rape knowledge and not circumstance.
    I am mixing two ideas in some of these statements. I will attempt to separate them.

    1. Some of the best anti-rape teaching comes from people who have in fact faced rape themselves. You don't need to have experienced it to teach prevention, though, any more than a doctor has to have experienced every ailment she treats.

    2. It is not that people who go years - even a lifetime - without being raped are the best teachers of how to avoid it. It is that we may have something to learn from their experiences. When I first mentioned this idea it was to ask the question: what, if anything, is different about their experiences? Did they make different choices, have different backgrounds/training, have different habits, find themselves in different circumstances; or does it really all come down to pure chance? I don't know the answer, but I would like to. It's a bit like those movies where everyone is dying from some strange virus, except a few people, and the protagonists have to figure out why they remain healthy, and somehow use that knowledge to cure everyone.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  6. #556
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I am mixing two ideas in some of these statements. I will attempt to separate them.

    1. Some of the best anti-rape teaching comes from people who have in fact faced rape themselves. You don't need to have experienced it to teach prevention, though, any more than a doctor has to have experienced every ailment she treats.

    2. It is not that people who go years - even a lifetime - without being raped are the best teachers of how to avoid it. It is that we may have something to learn from their experiences. When I first mentioned this idea it was to ask the question: what, if anything, is different about their experiences? Did they make different choices, have different backgrounds/training, have different habits, find themselves in different circumstances; or does it really all come down to pure chance? I don't know the answer, but I would like to. It's a bit like those movies where everyone is dying from some strange virus, except a few people, and the protagonists have to figure out why they remain healthy, and somehow use that knowledge to cure everyone.
    @Coriolis

    This is why I brought up the example of me and my friends as children. What were we doing differently as 8 year olds to prevent or allow rape? The point is that the methods and perpetrators of rape are so varied that it makes looking at people who haven't been taped (but who might still be raped in future) an insensible way to approach the subject. It makes much more sense to focus on the active component (the rapist) than the passive component (victims). The majority of people are not victims or perpetrators of rape. I have no doubt that many people living parallel lives to rape victims avoid rape circumstantially. So their lives have nothing to teach us because circumstance not action is on their side. My friends father has never been robbed so by your estimation he has something to teach us about preventing robbery. He NEVER locks his door. You are falsely correlating lack of crime with lack of possibility for crime

  7. #557
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    This is why I brought up the example of me and my friends as children. What were we doing differently as 8 year olds to prevent or allow rape? The point is that the methods and perpetrators of rape are so varied that it makes looking at people who haven't been taped (but who might still be raped in future) an insensible way to approach the subject. It makes much more sense to focus on the active component (the rapist) than the passive component (victims). The majority of people are not victims or perpetrators of rape. I have no doubt that many people living parallel lives to rape victims avoid rape circumstantially. So their lives have nothing to teach us because circumstance not action is on their side. My friends father has never been robbed so by your estimation he has something to teach us about preventing robbery. He NEVER locks his door. You are falsely correlating lack of crime with lack of possibility for crime
    I am asking whether a correlation exists - big difference. In the case of children you mention, the differences would lie with their families, or even the community. Direct parental supervision is one factor, but not the only one, and perhaps not the most important.

    The only situations I can evaluate myself are those of people I know in person. For instance, the 16-yo daughter of a friend was recently raped by a family "friend". In hindsight, her parents point out several things that they feel (their judgment, not mine) should have made them suspicious. What makes one person/family notice and act on such clues, while another does not? Individual situations often show us best what went wrong. We can only learn what "goes right" in the aggregate, since we are essentially looking for what happens in the absence of the specified outcome.

    Do you honestly think who is raped and who isn't is purely a matter of chance? That is a rather fatalistic view, and implies there is nothing one can do at all to prevent it.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #558
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    i don't feel like quoting but in regards to the teaching people not to rape/be raped thing.

    i think the whole point is just that if men and boys were raised to respect women and think of them as their equals they would not develop this need to lord their power over them or to dominate them and take what they want or keep them down etc.

    sexism has so deeply permeated society that it almost seems impossible to undo...it starts before babies are even born. in the conversations mn have with each other about what their boys will be like or what thy will protect their daughters from to the toys one purchases...to the messages we tell them when they're getting dressed for school...to the friend that's a girl calls your son...etc etc...it's in the way men speak to each other about random women or their girlfriends/wives. it's what mothers tell their daughters in how to act...what to put up with...or how men are...it's beat into us all from day one. the only cure is to one by one do it better...correct the bs told by others to your children...teach them better...show them better...live it. etc. but people have to first care enough about it's toxicity in our society...to pay attention to the actual real outcomes of it. it's not enough to say rape is bad. it's about molding ones brain in such a way that it knows.

    i mean...i'm sure everyone knows all that.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  9. #559
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Nothing short of total equality is acceptable to me. Why is it unlikely? If everyone maintains that attitude it MAKES IT SO. I refuse to give in to that kind of defeatism. That you feel this way just says there is still much work to do. I think the greatest obstacle we currently face re gender equality is the apathy of modern woman. But I can see that apathy slowly changing. Fifty years ago, who would have predicted we’d have a black president in the White House? Change happens, all it takes is sufficient will. Women have to take the lead, not in fretting for their own safety, but in challenging the Rape Culture that threatens their liberty. Far too many look the other way, or worse.


    Feelings don’t come into it. Let’s deal in facts. What is it that actually reduces sexual assault? Is it restricting the movement of women (even were that practicable) or restricting what they wear? If that were the case, wouldn’t you expect there to be very low rates of sexual assault in a place like Saudi Arabia, where women have almost no freedom? In fact, it has one of the highest rape scales in the world. We will not prevent rape by restricting women's freedom. WE WILL NOT PREVENT RAPE BY RESTRICTING WOMEN'S FREEDOM.

    In fact, as this map demonstrates, the opposite is actually true.


    We might prevent rape by restricting the freedoms of rapists, but fuck, let’s not get radical or anything.
    Oh okay yeah that's basically what I'm saying.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  10. #560
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    i don't feel like quoting but in regards to the teaching people not to rape/be raped thing.

    i think the whole point is just that if men and boys were raised to respect women and think of them as their equals they would not develop this need to lord their power over them or to dominate them and take what they want or keep them down etc.
    I agree that this is a good long-term approach. How long do you think it will take for it to be implemented and significantly impact the levels of sexual assault? What do you recommend women do in the interim, while waiting for the effects to be felt? How would you advise women and men to deal with the remaining (hopefully small) risk of assault, sexual and otherwise?
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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