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  1. #541
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaqcues Le Paul View Post
    Not attempting to knitpick at you, but the vibe of this makes me think you only want sons to be taught not to rape. (Humouring the idea that not a single son isn't)

    Why not do both?
    Exactly. Rape is a crime. Just as people should raise their children not to commit crimes, they should also raise them to be alert to the fact that there are criminals in the world and probably always will be, unless human nature somehow changes overnight. Forewarned is forearmed, and taking reasonable precautions to avoid becoming a crime victim does not excuse the criminal.

    I have read accounts of how cracking down on relatively minor crime like vandalism and even littering can lead to significant reduction in more serious crime like assault and burglary, ostensibly by setting the behavioral bar high. I wonder, by extension, if we are diligent about calling out "minor" behavior like catcalls and groping, if it will also reduce the most serious assault of rape. It seems to me this is the whole idea of "everyday sexism": understanding that it happens every day, often in small, subtle ways, and must be addressed every day.
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  2. #542
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaqcues Le Paul View Post
    I see that my phrasing of that question was quite open to interpretation. I of course did not mean it, as you had taken it.
    No, it quite clearly reflects your attitude, and raises an important point I was happy to address.

    As I assert, you can teach both genders to not rape and to not be raped.
    Go ahead then. Teach us how not to be raped.

    Of course not that in the literal sense, but you can educate them on warning signs, rules of thumb, and the like of potential rape. It's the best that can be done, it's better then teaching them nothing right? I know I for one, would not want to be left clueless about something as serious as this.
    And yet you seem to be.
    It's not the best that can be done. In fact, it's probably one of the worst things that can be done. It brutalises gender relations. It casts an ugly shadow over the life and freedoms of women. And IT DOESN'T WORK.

    To address the other half of the misinterpretation, essentially I assert that all humans have the potential to rape at one point or another. Not because of culture, but because of instinct going off the deep end. As I'd imagine sex as been around forever for humans, thus it would probably make sense that rape has forever as well.
    What you imagine is not germane to the discussion. What you "imagine" and what you "assert" are informed by the rape myths I have already alluded to. RAPE IS NOT NORMAL.
    I kindly ask however, that you provide me a link to where you gained that quote from.
    Original post edited.

  3. #543
    A Mystery Jacques Le Paul's Avatar
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    Thanks for informing me about where that came from, I couldn't bear to read the OP completely, as I had felt a bit sad as I was reading it. I can only speak for myself when I say, I cannot read about something terrible happening to someone easily. I fear the day I ever hear or read anything about people I know personally.

    I would like to point how, you seem to be targeting pieces of my reply over the entire thing.

    No, it quite clearly reflects your attitude, and raises an important point I was happy to address.
    I must ask, what is my attitude? I don't seem to know it seems, what my attitude is towards this.

    Go ahead then. Teach us how not to be raped.
    I don't know though, how can I teach something that I do not know? If I had the knowledge, I'd share it with everyone. As rape is terrible, and it can bring pain and suffering into people's lives.


    And yet you seem to be.
    It's not the best that can be done. In fact, it's probably one of the worst things that can be done. It brutalises gender relations. It casts an ugly shadow over the life and freedoms of women. And IT DOESN'T WORK.
    I don't know how everyone reacts to something, and I only know what I know. I do not what, I do not know. So I would only know, and only suggest what I think would work. I ask though, that you elaborate on how it brutalizes gender relations, and how it casts an ugly shadow over women's lives and freedoms. While men's lives and freedoms would be unaffected as you appear to say. As I'm missing something here, and you appear to know something I don't. Would you kindly explain this to me?


    What you imagine is not germane to the discussion. What you "imagine" and what you "assert" are informed by the rape myths I have already alluded to. RAPE IS NOT NORMAL.
    Would you care to define your definition of normal? I do say your definition, as what is normal to one person can be very different from another.

    Perhaps, saying rape is not ethical would be more sufficient.

    Though, if your sole aim is to attempt to bait me into an argument over the idea that rape is "normal" or "not normal" . I must kindly inform you, that I will not go into such an argument in public posts. Especially since you seem to have a hostile and angry energy towards me at the moment. I do not want to create a disruption or an atmosphere of hostility. I'd gladly discuss my thoughts over something with you in PM later if you want though, considering you calm down first. As that is how you learn about people, you talk about things.

    I of course however respect your opinion, and your response to what I have said. I of course repeat my invitation to discuss things with you later in PM. Your stance on things seem to be a 180 of my own near apathetic like stance. We can even discuss other topics too if you're interested. We both could learn about various perspectives on various topics.

    I of course invite everyone to give their opinions on this thread too.

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...-possible.html

    Disclaimer - I find that inequality for both genders, especially when ignored to be a terrible thing. I do not know everything, and I do not claim to know everything. I merely attempt to offer my perspective, suggestions, opinions and advice on various topics from time to time. I have no hostile intentions towards either gender, and I respect the opinions of those who do have hostile intentions. As they are still human beings after all. Who have their right to an opinion, and to think their own thoughts. Even if I disagree with their reasoning for being hostile. I also do not claim that I have an ability to tell people's intentions or what they are feeling all of the time. In fact, I claim that those abilities of mine are pretty terrible.
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  4. #544
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Regarding whether both genders can be taught not to rape and to not be raped....

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    ... In fact, it's probably one of the worst things that can be done. It brutalises gender relations. It casts an ugly shadow over the life and freedoms of women. And IT DOESN'T WORK.
    This is something I'm just kind of turning over in my head - do the people in this thread consider rape as a very separate variety of crime from any other type of crime, or do you feel that parallels can be drawn between many different types of crime to indicate how to reduce their frequency and severity? Depending on which you believe, I think conclusions about what to do to address the problem will be affected.

    Do you feel, @Salome, that anything short of women being free to act with the same freedom as men enjoy due to their physiology is acceptable? (To me this seems ideal, but unlikely to happen). Or, are you suggesting that if we feel sexual assault can be reduced by what women do, it not only restricts their freedom, but it puts the blame on them if something does happen, rather than on the guilty party and those attitudes must be changed.

    Or is there something else I'm not considering? I want to better understand where the people in the discussion are coming from, because I think it helps avoid pages of unproductive exchange and gets to the point more quickly.

    I certainly am not of the belief that women are at fault for sexual crimes committed against them. It is never okay to sexually assault someone, no matter what they are wearing/how drunk they are/where they are etc. On the other hand, I feel that because it is such a serious crime, for women's own sake it makes sense to me to do as much preventative damage control as is possible, just as I would would lock my house rather than relying solely on educating people that it's not okay to steal. I don't want to depend exclusively on other people's goodwill and the kind of judgement and education they have on the issue. On the other hand, I also recognize that there are instances where one has taken all the preventative measures possible and bad things still happen.

    I do think that the underlying attitude of entitlement that those who sexually assault/rape feel should be addressed actively. I had never thought about the connection between cleaning up petty crime in New York city (things like graffiti and jumping turnstiles at the subway and making that cleanup visible to onlookers) resulting in less serious crime being applied to the issue of sexual assault/rape, but it makes a lot of sense. If you address more minor examples of entitlement and sexism, and do so publicly so that offenders know they won't get away with it and so that onlookers see that too, it is likely to reduce the instances of it. In my own large extended family, I've found this to be the case. Those who have been vocal and public about minor instances of inappropriate behaviour or comments have had to deal with much less of it throughout the years.

    Certainly I've found in the classroom that addressing underlying attitudes that allow potential offenders to feel justified in doing something that is wrong and then treating the smallest incidents of that behaviour seriously and discussing it publicly and often do reduce that sort of behaviour from persisting.

    Therefore, to me that would indicate that attitudes can be changed and it impacts behaviour considerably. At the same time, I also teach people how to take whatever precautions they can to avoid becoming victims of theft, bullying, etc, recognizing that they are likely to encounter those situations somewhere along the way. Do you think that places blame on the victim by doing so?

  5. #545
    Junior Member Dufflepud's Avatar
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    Teaching people to beat the living shit out of people who try to abuse them is not blaming them if they are abused. Ideally, it wouldn't be necessary, but I agree with the above poster - it's not my fault if someone robs my unlocked house, but I'd still lock my doors.
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  6. #546
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaqcues Le Paul View Post
    I don't know though, how can I teach something that I do not know? If I had the knowledge, I'd share it with everyone. As rape is terrible, and it can bring pain and suffering into people's lives.
    You cannot teach what you do not know. That requires someone who does know; in this case, someone who is consistently able to avoid rape/sexual assault. It also presumes the other person wants to learn.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    This is something I'm just kind of turning over in my head - do the people in this thread consider rape as a very separate variety of crime from any other type of crime, or do you feel that parallels can be drawn between many different types of crime to indicate how to reduce their frequency and severity? Depending on which you believe, I think conclusions about what to do to address the problem will be affected.
    Not all crimes are equivalent. Rape is a violent crime, like mugging, assault, torture, kidnapping, and murder. Even many men are mindful what parts of town they go to, how they act and present themselves in possibly dangerous settings, etc. The same advice will help women avoid rape in many cases. This does not excuse the behavior of rapists, muggers, or other assailants. It simply recognizes that crime will always be with us to some degree, and it pays to be prudent.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Do you feel, @Salome, that anything short of women being free to act with the same freedom as men enjoy due to their physiology is acceptable? (To me this seems ideal, but unlikely to happen). Or, are you suggesting that if we feel sexual assault can be reduced by what women do, it not only restricts their freedom, but it puts the blame on them if something does happen, rather than on the guilty party and those attitudes must be changed.
    I don't see how we can expect crime of any sort to be reduced if we all sit around doing nothing about it. Yes, it is the police who are charged with law enforcement, but if we don't call them when we see a crime unfolding, they won't come. And sometimes, they just can't come quickly enough. It's not only rape victims who have to stand up for themselves, any other self-respecting bystander should as well.

    As for the freedom men enjoy due to their physiology: I suspect the average man has a level of situational awareness and self-preservation reflex much stronger than that of the average woman, just because of how men are brought up in our society. Especially in questionable situations, men seem to know who/where their buddies are, the escape routes, available options and resources, and a more realistic assessment of their strengths and weaknesses. They are raised to be independent, self-sufficient, and able to take care of themselves. Brute force physical strength is at just a part of this. This is what I meant when I wrote that the "rape culture" is really a specific case or subset of the broader culture that teaches dependence and even weakness to women. Correct that, and women and men will be on a much more equal footing in facing danger of all sorts.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Therefore, to me that would indicate that attitudes can be changed and it impacts behaviour considerably. At the same time, I also teach people how to take whatever precautions they can to avoid becoming victims of theft, bullying, etc, recognizing that they are likely to encounter those situations somewhere along the way. Do you think that places blame on the victim by doing so?
    If I advise someone to take precautions to protect themselves and their property against hurricane damage, am I blaming them as a potential victim? Of course there is no human agency involved in natural disasters, but the principle is the same. We know there is a small but finite possibility of something causing serious harm, so we take reasonable precautions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dufflepud View Post
    Teaching people to beat the living shit out of people who try to abuse them is not blaming them if they are abused. Ideally, it wouldn't be necessary, but I agree with the above poster - it's not my fault if someone robs my unlocked house, but I'd still lock my doors.
    I have made this point in several posts including on other threads, and it goes to the heart of the matter, namely do you want results, or the ability to say you were right? Many simple and straightforward measures reduce one's likelihood of suffering crimes of all sorts, with minimal impact on one's own actions or lifestyle.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #547
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    You cannot teach what you do not know. That requires someone who does know; in this case, someone who is consistently able to avoid rape/sexual assault. It also presumes the other person wants to learn.


    Not all crimes are equivalent. Rape is a violent crime, like mugging, assault, torture, kidnapping, and murder. Even many men are mindful what parts of town they go to, how they act and present themselves in possibly dangerous settings, etc. The same advice will help women avoid rape in many cases. This does not excuse the behavior of rapists, muggers, or other assailants. It simply recognizes that crime will always be with us to some degree, and it pays to be prudent.


    I don't see how we can expect crime of any sort to be reduced if we all sit around doing nothing about it. Yes, it is the police who are charged with law enforcement, but if we don't call them when we see a crime unfolding, they won't come. And sometimes, they just can't come quickly enough. It's not only rape victims who have to stand up for themselves, any other self-respecting bystander should as well.

    As for the freedom men enjoy due to their physiology: I suspect the average man has a level of situational awareness and self-preservation reflex much stronger than that of the average woman, just because of how men are brought up in our society. Especially in questionable situations, men seem to know who/where their buddies are, the escape routes, available options and resources, and a more realistic assessment of their strengths and weaknesses. They are raised to be independent, self-sufficient, and able to take care of themselves. Brute force physical strength is at just a part of this. This is what I meant when I wrote that the "rape culture" is really a specific case or subset of the broader culture that teaches dependence and even weakness to women. Correct that, and women and men will be on a much more equal footing in facing danger of all sorts.


    If I advise someone to take precautions to protect themselves and their property against hurricane damage, am I blaming them as a potential victim? Of course there is no human agency involved in natural disasters, but the principle is the same. We know there is a small but finite possibility of something causing serious harm, so we take reasonable precautions.


    I have made this point in several posts including on other threads, and it goes to the heart of the matter, namely do you want results, or the ability to say you were right? Many simple and straightforward measures reduce one's likelihood of suffering crimes of all sorts, with minimal impact on one's own actions or lifestyle.

    Most people are able avoid rape up until the point that they get raped. Not having been raped doesnt mean its some how related to you as a perso, but a variety of circumstances.

    I agree with the second bit.


    The third bit you've just made up. Not to be combative but you aren't supporting it, just painting men as all tactical with nothing to back it up.

  8. #548
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    @Coriolis

    I could just as easily argue that women are now situationally aware because their physiological disadvantage/vulnerability has required it.



    Also, (I'm sorry this is so disorganized. I do these on the phone and between auto correct an loading issues it's difficult)

    I think the suggestion that some people "know how to not get raped" is wrong. One because there are variety of way rape can come into play. Strangers, friends, figures of authority. Everyone is vulnerable to some category or rape.

    And as an example of where I think you argent breaks down. My best friend was raped by a neighboor as a child. A close friend was molested by her grandfather as a child. I was not raped or molested as a child despite having much less parental supervision. Was there something I did, or something about me that prevented my assault? Was their something they did that invited or even didn't prevent it. I don't think their is. Unfortunately circumstances worked in my favor and not in theirs.

  9. #549
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Is this stuff surprising? You have a society addicted to sex, and people say that's just fine, but expect to not see any of the consequences for it. No, that isn't fine. There's a reason people are the way they are. It's the way they're raised, the values they're taught.
    You lose.

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  10. #550
    Insert Snarky Quip Here Stigmata's Avatar
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    This post makes me want to take a shower in scalding temperature water while I attempt to furiously scrub the filth off my skin with a cloth sown with razor wire.

    Rape isn't necessarily a socio-economic or geographic issue, and while lots of it occurs to someone whom the victim has no prior acquaintance, what makes it such a horrific crime is psychological affect it has on the victim when it's committed by someone they know and trust. Not being in the wrong place at the wrong time is only a prevention method in the most superficial of senses, without having any real sort of merit or meaning behind it.

    I mean, how does one really precaution themselves against rape? Wear a chastity belt? I mean other than learning to physically defend one's self in the event of an attack, what can you really do? Furthermore, how does one defend or prepare themselves mentally for something like that?

    There's just so much more than encompasses rape than walking down a dark alleyway at night and being snatched by some some anonymous shadowy figure. Your post just seems to reduce it down to an issue of physicality.


    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    They are raised to be independent, self-sufficient, and able to take care of themselves. Brute force physical strength is at just a part of this. This is what I meant when I wrote that the "rape culture" is really a specific case or subset of the broader culture that teaches dependence and even weakness to women.
    In an extremely round-about way I could see merit in this. Rape is about predatory on the weak, not just weak women, and it's more about the attacker exerting their force on the victim and the mental power play of knowing they can use this person to fulfill their hedonistic sexual desires at their own request rather than any sense of sexual gratification; The psychological factors at play here are obviously inclusive to women, but not restricted to women (think prison culture).

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