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  1. #481
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    There are good laws, bad laws, and strings of laws that might be inconsistent, but I don't see what that has to do with state rights. Is the federal government somehow immune from inconsistent and/or bad laws?
    It means that people in the U.S. don't have equal protection under the law, because the laws are "unequal". This patchwork approach encourages criminals just to hop to a different state where things are more lenient, or technicalities like the age of consent are in their favor. It also gives law abiding folks potentially 50 different sets of laws to learn, as they move from state to state for school, work, marriage, military service, or a host of other reasons common in the modern age. Most of these differences have little to do with accommodating actual regional differences, especially as populations within the states become more diverse through immigration and internal migration.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #482
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    It means that people in the U.S. don't have equal protection under the law, because the laws are "unequal".
    Equal protection under the law is about applying the law equally within the jurisdictional boundaries where they are in effect, not making laws the same across jurisdictions. What you are complaining about is the lack of a standardized system of laws, not a lack of equal protection. Also, the flipside of criminals moving into states with less 'restrictive' laws is that they are moving out of states enacting stricter legal 'protections', thereby encouraging the other states to follow their example (assuming the citizens of such states agree about the definition of criminal activity). More generally, I MUCH prefer having the option of choosing between 50 different attempts to balance security and liberty through the legal system than to be at the mercy of a unitary legal regime, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about that.

    As for that judge in Montana, he's awful and the teacher should have been sentenced to at least 10 years in prison the first time, but the legal system has to balance restricting the discretion of horrible judges with restricting injustices brought about by mandatory minimum sentences (as a hypothetical example, sentencing a 19 year-old to a decade or more in prison for sex with a 16 year old). There is a lot of room for error in this balancing act, and that's probably significantly more of an explanatory factor that some kind of institutionalized sexism within the Montana legal system

  3. #483
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Equal protection under the law is about applying the law equally within the jurisdictional boundaries where they are in effect, not making laws the same across jurisdictions. What you are complaining about is the lack of a standardized system of laws, not a lack of equal protection. Also, the flipside of criminals moving into states with less 'restrictive' laws is that they are moving out of states enacting stricter legal 'protections', thereby encouraging the other states to follow their example (assuming the citizens of such states agree about the definition of criminal activity). More generally, I MUCH prefer having the option of choosing between 50 different attempts to balance security and liberty through the legal system than to be at the mercy of a unitary legal regime, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about that.
    Yes, I am seeing all of us first as U.S. citizens/residents, and second as residents of our state, county, and town. It all comes down to what each of us can expect, just by virtue of our citizenship/residence. It becomes a matter of equal protection when, say, teenagers in one state are protected by stronger rape laws than their peers across the state line, just because of where they live. We are all Americans. Especially on fundamental matters like public safety and individual freedom, it makes no more sense to have different laws for different geographical groups than different demographic groups.

    Edit: I meant to add: if you truly have the option of choosing among the 50 states for where to live, guided by state and local laws, you are lucky indeed. Most people are severely constrained in where they live, by employment options, family obligations, sometimes legal obligations, etc. It thus becomes not a matter of personal choice, but arbitrary inconsistency.
    Last edited by Coriolis; 08-30-2013 at 09:10 AM.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #484
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    This was difficult to read, but makes a very necessary point about the "it was just statutory" gambit, IMO.

    http://www.xojane.com/issues/stacey-...herice-morales

    What I needed, and what she needed, were strong male role models in my life who knew how the fuck to say "No thanks" to a little girl's come-ons. Because it doesn't matter if a young girl is saying yes, it's an adult man's job to say no.
    And yes, I do think this applies to boys molested by female teachers, or boys molested by male teachers, or girls molested by female teachers. I firmly believe that, while crushes and fantasies about authority figures may happen, undamaged children just do not seek out sex with adults. It's the adult's job to say no.

  5. #485
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Am I missing something again? Rape culture is feeling bad about not sticking up for yourself? For not walking out when it became plain that some guy wasn't about to respect you or your boundaries? I suppose this woman leaves the keys in her car, too, then complains when a thief steals it, and feels victimized again when a friend tells her what she did was dumb. Of course the fault lies with the aggressive man, or the car thief, but cause and effect relationships still apply.
    Your interpretation of "cause and effect" is a superficial and judgemental one. The intention of the article was to point out deeper causes, to point out the cultural sickness that makes women second-guess themselves instead of acting in the robotic way you propose we all ought to. Yes, this is Rape Culture.
    So is your subtle victim-blaming which isn't even remotely counteracted by your statement "of course the fault lies with the man".
    To suggest that women ought to be as guarded with potential romantic partners as we are with would-be car thieves, otherwise we're just "dumb" and asking to be exploited ? That's Rape Culture too.
    Welcome to the initiated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I'm just calling it like I see it. I have no patience with political correctness. If anyone wants to show me the error of my ways, I will read it with interest.
    http://www.newstatesman.com/society/...-groped-public

    All too often, girls and women suffer guilt that they invited or encouraged sex crime, or "let it happen". They are told to shake off such encounters as "funny stories". They are thought of as "making a fuss" if they experienced anything less than being grabbed by a serial killer and raped in an alleyway at knifepoint. So they get off the tube, they wipe the semen off their tights, and they carry on with the meeting like nothing ever happened. It took Ellie Cosgrave months to get angry.

    This is not unique. A while back, when we asked our Twitter followers about their experiences of being groped in public. The response was overwhelming, but even more so was the sheer number of women who hadn’t realised, until that point, that what had happened to them was often classed as sexual assault. They had been taught not to make a fuss, not to complain, to brush it under the carpet. Some of them had even been laughed at by police.

    Those who blame these women for not coming forward sooner are ignoring the culture of shame that still exists around sexual assault and harassment in this country. It ignores the nonchalance with which such claims are met. It ignores the tendency to blame the victim, and the fear that you will not be believed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #486
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Thanks, Beorn. I don't really know what else to say about that.

    I posted that link (or one like it, I can't remember) re: Robin Thicke on my Facebook wall and got a lot of "but he was just standing there!" Now his new video has come out that features women as accessories (especially black women) and a whole heaping pile of twerking, including a giant twerking ass float... and a foam No.1 finger. Hmm. Calls to mind questions about Miley's agency in that routine and the double standard of who has gotten the most heat for it.

    http://www.people.com/people/article...728803,00.html
    Ugh. I hate that man and his terrible songs which are everywhere. I can't drive 5 feet without one of them blasting from at least one station.

    I saw a clip of the VMA debacle and was confused as to why George Michael was a big deal again.

  7. #487
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    I saw a clip of the VMA debacle and was confused as to why George Michael was a big deal again.
    Because of the scene from 'The Rules of Attraction', of course.


  8. #488
    Anew Leaf
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Because of the scene from 'The Rules of Attraction', of course.

    I've never seen that movie.

    It is nice to see that other people do spazzy dances in their bedroom too.

  9. #489
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Your interpretation of "cause and effect" is a superficial and judgemental one. The intention of the article was to point out deeper causes, to point out the cultural sickness that makes women second-guess themselves instead of acting in the robotic way you propose we all ought to. Yes, this is Rape Culture.
    So is your subtle victim-blaming which isn't even remotely counteracted by your statement "of course the fault lies with the man".
    To suggest that women ought to be as guarded with potential romantic partners as we are with would-be car thieves, otherwise we're just "dumb" and asking to be exploited ? That's Rape Culture too.
    There is a big difference between telling women that they "invited or encouraged sex crime" or "to shake off such encounters as 'funny stories'"; and telling them they have the right to say no, and to insist on the respectful treatment they claim to want. If a man is NOT going to behave with this respect, and the woman he is mistreating won't stand up for herself because "he should know better to begin with", just who is she expecting to come to her rescue?

    Most people give car thieves barely a second thought, but still lock their cars and pocket the keys. You may call this robotic. I call it a good habit, just like brushing my teeth and putting things away when I'm done with them. It would be an equally good habit, when some guy starts to cross the line (does every woman know where her line is, anyway?), to call it out immediately and put a stop to it right there. The old "stitch in time". The guy's reaction will tell much about his intentions and character.

    To quote your article, "They had been taught not to make a fuss, not to complain, to brush it under the carpet." Now we need to teach them to make a fuss, to complain, and not to brush it off. According to you, though, if I encourage - or heaven forbid, expect - women to do just that, I am blaming them for the assault itself.

    So what's it going to be, ladies? Be a victim? Stand there knowing what you deserve, but unwilling to lift a finger to get it? Or find your voice and demand it?
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #490
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    just who is she expecting to come to her rescue?

    So what's it going to be, ladies? Be a victim? Stand there knowing what you deserve, but unwilling to lift a finger to get it? Or find your voice and demand it?
    God, you're hard work. She wasn't asking to be rescued. She didn't allow herself to be raped. She *did* find her voice. And used it to explain the insidious effects of Rape Culture and sexism on women's behaviour and psychology. You reacted to her in the way others reacted to the woman who danced against groping. Dismissively. Pejoratively. Without understanding. Exclusively fixated on the situation's whats but insensitive to its wherefores. The kind of dismissive intolerance you adopt towards women's issues is exactly why women don't speak up more often. Why do you feel the need to prop up the patriarchy? What has it ever done for you? Oh, yeah. Right.

    Of course she should have reacted more quickly. Duh. And was likely confused about why she did not. What she was doing was trying to analyse her own acquiescence in a broader context. A context wherein women's bodies are routinely co-opted by others, from childhood on, as the ESP vividly illustrates. Feminine acquiescence and submission is the norm, drummed into girls from infancy. The pressure to conform to that norm erodes self-esteem. The sexism of the everyday erodes self-esteem, and that in turn undermines the capacity to assert one's own agency. What happens as a result demonstrates why it is an inherently unhealthy way of being in the world that needs to change. But even that knowledge doesn't automatically confer immunity on any woman subject to a lifetime of those influences. Situations are more complex than your black and white judgements allow.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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