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  1. #461
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 93JC View Post
    Sorry, I started my post before you had finished yours. I was more directed at Beorn and Ivy. Ivy for stating the obvious, and Beorn for stating... whatever it is he thinks.
    oh. well, glad there's some clarification on that.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  2. #462
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    oh. well, glad there's some clarification on that.
    Whatever my clarification is worth.

    It made sense in my head, and made more sense when you and Ivy hadn't already responded to Beorn. It was directed more at Beorn. Kind of a mocking "bravo, good job embarrassing yourself".

  3. #463
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Seriously. For someone who spends so much time talking about Tradition and how much more ethical people were when we all followed it... I'm really alarmed at how blasé your response to this has been, Beorn. No father I know would respond that way. My dad (a very Traditional guy) wanted to slash the judge's tires himself.

  4. #464
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Now, in total fairness, I think there can be some level of cultural/personal interpretation about age of consent that has nothing to do with sexism, persay. Some people feel that younger teenage girls/boys are more capable of this sort of decision making than others, a topic that's been brought up a couple times on the forum (including once by me, when I think I asked about whether I should even consider perusing a 17 year old when I was 20-21 [and was basically laughed at for asking such a ridiculous question], and I recall the thread about the two girls who were with each other, I think one was 14-15). Different countries have varying ages of consent.

    Quote Originally Posted by wiki
    Persons below the age of consent may not, by law, give consent, and sexual relations involving such persons may be punished by criminal sanctions similar to those for rape or sexual assault. Non-violent sexual contact with persons under the age of consent may be punished with varying degrees of severity, ranging from a misdemeanor with a simple fine, to a felony with a punishment as serious as rape.

    In addition, many places have a higher age of consent if the older partner is in a position of authority over the young person such as being his or her teacher, manager, coach, parent or stepparent. For example in Indiana the age of consent is 16 but it is illegal for a person over 18 to have sex with anyone under 18 if they work at their school, are their parent or a stepparent, or are a person recruiting them to the military.

    That said, while I don't know every detail of the case, it doesn't look like this could be considered as a 'fair' relationship regardless and this seems to fit into the molestation category. The main element being taking advantage of her being young/impressionable.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  5. #465
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    I'm not trying to minimize what actually happened in this case. I am distinguishing between what the headlines say, what people percieve, and what actually happened. Perhaps you understood that this was a statutory rape case, but I'm not sure other people did when they saw the headlines or read the charge for non-consensual sexual intercourse. I know I presumed forcible rape was involved when I saw the headline and read the charge on first glance. Also, I am not trying to justify the judges choice of words. I am merely recognizing that in a statutory rape case those issues would be relevant. Statutory rape is a strict liability crime so it seems only fair to consider a wide range of aggravating and mitigating factors when sentencing. I think the judge felt it necessary to give some sort of justification for the verdict based on the facts of the case when the reality was the verdict was largely fueled by the broken deal that was going to let him get totally off and probably avoiding an appeal. My general sense is that this wasn't a failure of the justice system, but an example of the limitations of the justice system.

    Maybe my position on this is a result of a lack of compassion, but I know for sure it's a result of my own hatred for sensationalism of court cases and a heavy defense bias. I mean when those three kids murdered that baseball player my first thoughts were... Jesus, why did those kids consent to the cops searching their car.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  6. #466
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    For the record I'm not just approaching this as a legal issue, and so varying laws and cultural attitudes about "age of consent" are IMO irrelevant. (But sometimes a lowered age of consent is itself a sexist practice- when young women are routinely married off to older men, for example). The man was her teacher. She was a vulnerable, sexually precocious student he was charged with guiding and protecting. He did not do that. Instead, he took advantage of whatever traumas she had already suffered that made her so sexually precocious. This is disgusting and predatory any way you cut it. For that to be compounded by a judge who publicly states that the harm was mitigated by her sexual precociousness and that it was "not some beat-up rape" is also disgusting and IMO that person has no business continuing to sit on the bench.

  7. #467
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    That's totally fair Ivy. I'm just looking at it from different views for my own sake.

    In any case I did find it telling that various locales specifically differentiate the concept of consent with persons of 'trust or authority', which makes sense because of the factors you're describing, ie. higher likelihood of predatory behavior.


    But yeah, that judge sucks.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  8. #468

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    Minimization is so damned insidious.
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  9. #469
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    For the record I'm not just approaching this as a legal issue, and so varying laws and cultural attitudes about "age of consent" are IMO irrelevant. (But sometimes a lowered age of consent is itself a sexist practice- when young women are routinely married off to older men, for example). The man was her teacher. She was a vulnerable, sexually precocious student he was charged with guiding and protecting. He did not do that. Instead, he took advantage of whatever traumas she had already suffered that made her so sexually precocious. This is disgusting and predatory any way you cut it. For that to be compounded by a judge who publicly states that the harm was mitigated by her sexual precociousness and that it was "not some beat-up rape" is also disgusting and IMO that person has no business continuing to sit on the bench.

    Do all boys who who want to have sex with their teachers necessarily suffer from trauma like girls apparently do?
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  10. #470
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    The whole case just makes me want to puke. I have a fourteen year old son and I would want to kill any fifty-something man or woman that thought it was a good idea to have sex with him. It's not unusual for kids to have crushes or even lust for their teachers and other adult leaders in their lives. That does not make it okay for adults to have sex with them. Personally, I think adults that do that kind of thing ought to at least receive a public flogging. At least.

    And as a country we apparently need to do a broad public service camaign about what consent is and who can and cannot consent because a lot of people seem to be really confused about it.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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