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  1. #421
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung View Post
    I haven't been reading this thread, beyond the OP and the title, but here I go anyway:

    Everyday sexist stuff at work in the past year:

    -I am unsure of myself at work and a woman saw me and advised me to "Stop being such a woman and make a decision".

    -A lady asked me not to gift wrap her book, because she wanted a girl to do it (I work with children's books). Mind you, I hate wrapping, but still!
    I see this all the time, it's the sort of thing I have to stop myself mimicking because it is so subtle and I often mirror people when I have (RL) discourse with them. I am certain I have though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung View Post
    -My coworkers and I were talking about parenting and I said: I know it's unlikely to be a financial possibility, but I think it'd be cool to be a stay-at-home dad, at least for a while. And people thought I was kidding around and some of them teased me. When they saw I was sincere they backed off for the most part though, so it wasn't that bad.-
    I really love it when I hear a man talking about wanting to be a stay at home father, something about going against the odds for what you believe in/want. Kudos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung View Post
    -An older guy at work has been touching me inappropriately (he is always finding excuses to touch me, and has spanked me more than once), but he's normally so nice and helpful and we get along so well. Eventually I said: please don't, that's sexual harassment, and then he announced: it's not sexual harassment if you're into it. And everyone at work had a good laugh. I admit, it is kind of funny, but there are limits.
    Thats quite repulsive, I don't think you should allow it. I'd put it in writing and talk to whoever is in charge on that. It is sexual harrassment and your feelings on it are perfectly valid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung View Post
    I'm glad I don't have to live in fear and all (no one tried to rape me, or abuse me), but I do think it's interesting to look at the small little things men run into. A lot of it's my fault for not setting clear boundaries and not asserting myself.

    Most of the sexism I encounter is prejudice against femininity: That is a typically feminine attitude. Why would a man want that? You must be inherently defective/weak/undesirable. It's pretty mild though, I'm sure they're not trying to be hurtful.

    Strangely, my coworkers are 95% female, and all of the management is female too. Even our CEO is female. Come to think of it, I've never had a male boss. Mind you, I have only had 3 jobs. You would think they wouldn't disapprove of femininity so much, since a lot of them are quite feminine, it's like this subtle built-in disrespect for the female gender role.

    It's like even when the sexism is directed at a man, it's really sexist against women (not that female=femininity, but you get what I'm saying).

    You raise some really interestings points here. Specifically regarding ingrained sexism towards women by women. It's as if the over emphasis of stereotyping takes away from the serious. So that femininity itself becomes a mockery in some respects.

    This post is a great example of why INFP men rock. The guys against sexism thing, incase that was unclear.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  2. #422
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I like hearing about involved dads, too, but I get a little impatient when everybody acts like an involved dad or a dad who even considers staying home needs to be applauded as if he has cured cancer or discovered life on another planet or something.

  3. #423
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    This is an interesting train of thought. Where would you say the power lies?
    Not with redneck country singers, for damn straight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    In a broader sense you can marginalize those people so they don't have power, but that doesn't really get to the core of the issue, and it wastes a resource, too. To some extent I'm willing to toss the KKK and Westboro Baptist's in a pile and say "screw em", but this guy wasn't a terrible person. He was just misguided, with a wife, and a kid, and a struggling marriage.
    'Cos hating blacks is unconscionable whereas hating women is more understandable?
    'Cos you kinda sorta know where he's coming from a lil bit?
    Whatevs.

    One thing you might be overlooking is that he considers you his equal. Try talking to him in drag and let us know how you get on.
    Quote Originally Posted by HelenOfTroy View Post
    This post is a great example of why INFP men rock. The guys against sexism thing, incase that was unclear.
    +1
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  4. #424
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I like hearing about involved dads, too, but I get a little impatient when everybody acts like an involved dad or a dad who even considers staying home needs to be applauded as if he has cured cancer or discovered life on another planet or something.
    Yah i understand that, I think it contributes to it too. It should be normal for men to be involved fathers. I meant more pro equal rights and pro stay at home fathers though. Because of the stigma attached to it for men it does seem commendable to me...not adoration or pedestal worthy but certainly commendable. I'd like to see more praise for this too because that may make a difference.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  5. #425
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HelenOfTroy View Post
    Yah i understand that, I think it contributes to it too. It should be normal for men to be involved fathers. I meant more pro equal rights and pro stay at home fathers though. Because of the stigma attached to it for men it does seem commendable to me...not adoration or pedestal worthy but certainly commendable. I'd like to see more praise for this too because that may make a difference.
    Yeah, I'm with you. I just don't feel the need to kiss anybody's feet for staying home with their kids. Be they female or male. It is a personal choice specific to each family and people can be attentive and adequate parents without it.

    I've also noticed that for men, being a "stay at home dad" usually involves doing some work from home, not doing nothing at all career-wise. I know several dads who are the primary caregivers for their children, and only one of them is not working at all. Incidentally that's what "staying home with the kids" meant for me, too- I always did something to bring in money- and caught some flak from a few women who approached staying home as an ideology rather than a personal choice for themselves, for not focusing on my kids enough. Even though I was rarely apart from them. Just by virtue of making a little money, I was neglecting them. Who knew?

  6. #426
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Yeah, I'm with you. I just don't feel the need to kiss anybody's feet for staying home with their kids. Be they female or male. It is a personal choice specific to each family and people can be attentive and adequate parents without it.

    I've also noticed that for men, being a "stay at home dad" usually involves doing some work from home, not doing nothing at all career-wise. I know several dads who are the primary caregivers for their children, and only one of them is not working at all. Incidentally that's what "staying home with the kids" meant for me, too- I always did something to bring in money- and caught some flak from a few women who approached staying home as an ideology rather than a personal choice for themselves, for not focusing on my kids enough. Even though I was rarely apart from them. Just by virtue of making a little money, I was neglecting them. Who knew?
    The double standard is enough to make you want to bash your brains out. I fully support the choices of families with SAHDs but the stuff people give you crap about when you're a mom SAH or otherwise, is just . . . I think you have to experience to really believe it.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  7. #427
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    'Cos hating blacks is unconscionable whereas hating women is more understandable?
    'Cos you kinda sorta know where he's coming from a lil bit?
    Whatevs.
    Understandable does not imply acceptable. If you want to witch hunt any sort of bias in me, you'll find it. I'm not perfect. And yet I try anyway.

    Not everything is black and white. People have biases of many sorts. Everyone. Racism, sexism, I really believe it's not just some evil trait that you have or you don't, it comes from a lack of understanding. Knowledge. Which can exist in degrees. A lot of the time the reason why people can't see what's obvious isn't because they're stupid, but they have some emotional blockage getting in the way that makes it difficult for them to consider possibilities.

    For instance, if you feel really inferior about yourself, you might adopt an ideology that makes it so everyone who isn't your color or gender or even typology type is automatically inferior to you. As long as you have that emotional issue, you're not going to see the obvious and move on. People cling to their sometimes crappy behavior and outlooks because they rely on them like a crutch. If you don't give them a positive replacement (a sense of their own capabilities and the ability to acknowledge their weaknesses realistically without shame, for instance), they're just going to keep clinging and the problem will persist within them.

    One thing you might be overlooking is that he considers you his equal. Try talking to him in drag and let us know how you get on.
    As stated, different tactics for different situations. Nobody can reach anybody.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  8. #428
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    Understandable does not imply acceptable. If you want to witch hunt any sort of bias in me, you'll find it. I'm not perfect. And yet I try anyway.
    It's not a witch hunt. I was just pointing out a double standard on your part. All of us have implicit biases. You just made yours pretty explicit.

    As stated, different tactics for different situations.
    You didn't state that though. You just suggested that pandering was "really important" - so that men still get to feel "like men". I'm still not sure you understand what's up with that logic, so I'll spell it out: Having a set of balls doesn't entitle anyone to special privileges.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  9. #429
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    It's not a witch hunt. I was just pointing out a double standard on your part. All of us have implicit biases. You just made yours pretty explicit.
    I don't see a double standard. Racism bothers me, sexism bothers me. However, in either case, I try to make it rare to shun someone entirely. This doesn't mean endorsement of their outlooks.

    Are you referring to my KKK/Westboro statement?

    Quote Originally Posted by me
    As stated, different tactics for different situations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé
    You didn't state that though. ...
    I stated, in post 416, full quote there:

    Quote Originally Posted by me
    Tactics have to meet the needs of the situation, is what I'm saying. Sometimes I do just avoid, but then I feel like I'm doing both of us a disservice.
    Quote Originally Posted by me
    And sometimes the best option really is to...
    But a lot of the time, I think...
    I think you can...
    Quote Originally Posted by me
    Different tools for different needs.
    ---

    You just suggested that pandering was "really important" - so that men still get to feel "like men". I'm still not sure you understand what's up with that logic, so I'll spell it out: Having a set of balls doesn't entitle anyone to special privileges.
    I'm not advocating special privleges. I'm advocating, based on my unique perspective(s) into these issues, based on my knowing many men who think this way, an effective way of confronting the issue.

    Here's what I said in the very first post (emphasis added), but then I wrote a lot more, too. Have you read any of the posts I've responded to you with? It's really full of explanations.

    Quote Originally Posted by me, post 402
    I think that if you're going to try to confront men about sexism it's really important to give them the impression that nobody is trying to neuter them (or they'll just ignore you) - you can still be sexually virile, confident, assertive, tough, all that good stuff you want to hold on to and celebrate even without flying off the handle, having a gun in your truck

    . . . etc.
    then, in post 413, I further clarified. (emphasis added)

    Quote Originally Posted by me, 413
    Rather, I try to confront the problem, slowly, in small pieces, by understanding that because there is such a strong link in their mind between defending their masculinity to maintain an image (or more than just image, an actual state) of toughness or competency, you have to make sure people understand what you mean, or they'll black and white the problem and assume you're suggesting 'getting them snipped.'

    Then they'll simply ignore me and write me off as a pussy, and I accomplish nothing. Whereas when I understand this almost knee-jerk reaction and compensate (yes, changing my behavior to adjust to their issues), I can actually demonstrate what I want to and they'll actually listen.

    So that's how I try and do things.
    The end game isn't to have them hold on to the belief that their masculinity makes them competent. Rather, it's to avoid having them black and white the problem (polarize).

    Hypothetical: Let's say you're a man and you believe that being a man (having a set of balls, as you said) is what makes you competent or tough. Someone comes along and says you shouldn't hold privleges because you have a set.

    In your mind, you're going to say, 'Bullshit! Of course I should have privleges. I'm tough, I'm competent! I'm a (real) man! Other people, women, gays, whatever, they aren't those things! I'm better than them!' and then you block them out.

    Because you have the ideas linked.

    But if someone comes along and says, 'hey, here's what toughness is. Here's competency. Here's how those work. And hey, now that you see what that is, here's what it isn't. It doesn't anything to do with what you have between your legs.' You're a lot more likely to say: 'Wait!...maybe those traits I care about (competency) don't really have much to do with my junk after all.'
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  10. #430
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    regarding sahm/sahd: If everyone minded their own fucking business none of this would be a problem.
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


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