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  1. #411
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I wish more dudes wanted this.
    As more guys are willing to be open about their wishes in this respect, more will feel free to do so, and to consider this option if they have not already. Men's taking advantage of non-traditional choices has certainly lagged women's, but Rome wasn't built in a day.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #412
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    This song on the radio is vaguely sexist in sections and more outright in others.
    It also confuses specific cultural norms with gender roles. It is also gross.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  3. #413
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Not all men are insecure assholes.
    Yep. But if it wasn't clear, I was speaking to a specific subset of men who may believe in the traits I described above, such as owning a gun and truck is an extension of masculinity.

    As for the kind who are? It's not "really important" to give them what they want, IMO.
    I'm didn't say anything about making concessions. That's not what I'm suggesting.

    I think I have higher than average contact with various types of "working men", many lower class, packers, movers, construction workers, and also gun owners, and general 'good ol' boys' than is typical for this forum at least. Not all of these men are unrepentant scumbags, but there is a high rate of this sort of sexism.

    I know that in my actual experience, if you want to address issues like homophobia or sexism, you have to understand who you are talking to. Many of these guys are simply born into an environment that, as fia said concisely . . .

    (slightly edited from original)
    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    . . . confuses specific cultural norms with gender roles.
    These are people I work with and deal with. I'm not entirely willing to say "you guys are assholes" and just leave them to mire in their own ignorance. Rather, I try to confront the problem, slowly, in small pieces, by understanding that because there is such a strong link in their mind between defending their masculinity to maintain an image (or more than just image, an actual state) of toughness or competency, you have to make sure people understand what you mean, or they'll black and white the problem and assume you're suggesting getting them snipped.

    Then they'll simply ignore me and write me off as a pussy, and I accomplish nothing. Whereas when I understand this almost knee-jerk reaction and compensate (yes, changing my behavior to adjust to their issues), I can actually demonstrate what I want to and they'll actually listen.

    So that's how I try and do things.

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    It also confuses specific cultural norms with gender roles. It is also gross.
    Yes.

    I only heard it on the radio once, but I think it qualifies as a sort of 'everyday' sexism you might encounter just driving along in your car.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  4. #414
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Also FWIW I actually am considering buying a truck and I now own a shotgun, and I do like country music in general. But I don't see a gun or a truck as an extension of my masculinity, and find that sort of thinking pretty silly.

    Rather, I own a gun because 1) recreation 2) saw a big ass bear and realized...wow and 3) vaguely for defensive purposes. And I want a truck because I'm living in the woods and I've torn out my muffler on my washed out gravel driveway, and it'd be more practical than my 4 door sedan which I've removed all the seats from for carrying tools and wood. But I sort of like my POS car and the gas mileage.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  5. #415
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    ^lol @ TMI

    I guess if you want to educate these sons of guns, knock yourself out.
    I'd rather just give them a wide berth.
    Ditto the bears.

    I won't plead for equality to anyone; I demand it. Balls or no balls. If all women did the same, you can bet guys like that would soon start humming a different tune. In fact, a big part of the reason we find ourselves in this situation, is that women are too considerate and careful around the overinflated masculine ego.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #416
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    ^lol @ TMI
    Nice shot. Yeah, could have done without the second paragraph, but hey, now you know.

    Main point there being - while there is sometimes a certain element of machismo in a lot of this 'woods' stuff - hunting, trucks, guns, etc., it's not universal (and it annoys more than just me).

    I guess if you want to educate these sons of guns, knock yourself out.
    I'd rather just give them a wide berth.
    Ditto the bears.
    Meh, invariably, like the bears, I'm running into these people. It comes with the territory in my life, so I adapt.

    Tactics have to meet the needs of the situation, is what I'm saying. Sometimes I do just avoid, but then I feel like I'm doing both of us a disservice.

    I won't plead for equality to anyone; I demand it. Balls or no balls. If all women did the same, you can bet guys like that would soon start humming a different tune. In fact, a big part of the reason we find ourselves in this situation, is that women are too considerate and careful around the overinflated masculine ego.
    Possibly. Well, I'll clarify. I'd tend to agree, if all women demanded it, sure, you'd get some result, and men would adjust. And sometimes the best option really is to just punch their big ego in the spleen and say "your needs are all wrong, adjust." That works well if you have some sort of control over the subject. If you don't, and they can retreat somewhere and ignore you...well that's what they're gonna do. At least that's what I see happen. But maybe you can make enough of an impression that they'll straighten up and fly right.

    But a lot of the time, I think the failure of 'being considerate' is really not approaching the issue at all.

    I think you can approach a situation AND be considerate of an overinflated, delicate, frustratingly stubborn, irrational ego that is hard to deal with. Really, sometimes I think it's the only other option.

    Different tools for different needs.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  7. #417
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    I think you can approach a situation AND be considerate of an overinflated, delicate, frustratingly stubborn, irrational ego that is hard to deal with. Really, sometimes I think it's the only other option.
    It's only a necessity where the assholes wield all the power. We don't live in that world anymore. They (and perhaps you) just think we do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #418
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    It's only a necessity where the assholes wield all the power. We don't live in that world anymore. They (and perhaps you) just think we do.
    This is an interesting train of thought. Where would you say the power lies?
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  9. #419
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    It's only a necessity where the assholes wield all the power. We don't live in that world anymore. They (and perhaps you) just think we do.
    Ok, let me give a real life example.

    One guy I met was a fellow who I sold a spare camshaft to and then agreed to do the work installing it in his car. He was on ok enough guy, and tried to get buddy-buddy with me, and kept griping about some issue he was having with his girlfriend. That's no issue, but it seemed to phrase his frustration in terms of her being a woman. 'Aren't women stupid and crazy?' Gee, do you think that those relationship issues and your tendency to belittle your partner as a defense mechanism are related? But I wouldn't just tell the guy "I demand that you change your outlook!". He'd just put up his walls and ignore me.

    Instead, I used a different approach. I worked on his car. I did good work and demonstrated competency and earned his respect. I took some digs at him, little stuff, like how his lack of garage organization really slowed down his work, that sort of thing, but I gave him pointers. And when he brought up his girlfriend (actually...it was his wife, come to think of it) in that way he was doing it I tacitly disapproved of it. In a way that was visible, but not too in his face. You could describe this as being considerate of his ego.

    And I think it's good strategy. Why?

    See, this guy wanted to be buddy-buddy. He respected my work, he respected my organization, and now I was showing him disapproval. That bothers him, ya know. 'Why isn't he approving?' It sort of eats at him, maybe not consciously, but it's there. So I let him stew a bit, and sooner of later he wanted to know what he's doing wrong. He wanted to listen.

    Then, then, you can start to clue a guy like that in. He would have had his walls up otherwise. And I gave him a little direction, why are you upset with her? What can you do in this situation to fix it without getting frustrated? Are you pissed at her or are you pissed at your own ability to navigate the situation?

    I don't expect to turn someone around in a day while working on his car, but you can start to give them nudges in the right direction.

    This isn't about the fact that I was doing work for him, either, that's not the power dynamic that was really relevant. Ultimately, the power to hold on to your own opinions is your own. Only so much can change that, and if someone isn't willing to listen, you can only force them to adapt so much by circumstance.



    In a broader sense you can marginalize those people so they don't have power, but that doesn't really get to the core of the issue, and it wastes a resource, too. To some extent I'm willing to toss the KKK and Westboro Baptist's in a pile and say "screw em", but this guy wasn't a terrible person. He was just misguided, with a wife, and a kid, and a struggling marriage.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  10. #420
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    Then, then, you can start to clue a guy like that in. He would have had his walls up otherwise. And I gave him a little direction, why are you upset with her? What can you do in this situation to fix it without getting frustrated? Are you pissed at her or are you pissed at your own ability to navigate the situation?

    I don't expect to turn someone around in a day while working on his car, but you can start to give them nudges in the right direction.
    Yes. It comes down to a choice between being theoretically correct, and practically effective. The cure for everyday sexism is everyday resistance and refusal to let it go by. If Bamboo gives this guy a nudge one day, and someone else does it a few days later, and someone else next week, etc., he will start to notice a shift in the culture, that it is no longer acceptable to treat women the way he does. People who care about correcting the situation have to take a long view and be persistent and consistent. There is no silver bullet.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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