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  1. #391
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I interpreted the stick figure as talking to friendly acquaintances, peers, coworkers, and people in power. Everyone except close friends and family. So that would include anyone who, in theory, would have the ability to solve the problem. (Thoughts from @iwakar?)
    I didn't make any such assumptions, but raised the question instead. I can say that my workplace is full of people who complain to anyone who will listen about things they don't like at work. Most of the complaints are legitimate - there is much disfunctionality where I work - but we won't solve anything just by griping to each other. Now come up with a specific and practical suggestion for correcting one of these problems, or at least work with me to find one, and I will support it 100%. Perhaps what I am saying is that the world is full of ineffective ways to address very serious problems. Obviously these won't help anyone, and may even play into the hands of those perpetuating the problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    This is a bit of an extreme example -- which only comes to mind b/c I recently listened to a podcast about it -- but consider foot-binding. A thousand years in which, seemingly, almost every man in China was turned on by tiny, deformed feet. A thousand years in which the vast majority of women were hobbled and mutilated during childhood, rendered almost unable to walk, and told they were the more desirable for it. That tradition influenced all levels of Chinese society; for example, it's the reason why so much of Chinese architecture only involves one floor. (If you can barely walk on your three-inch feet, you're not going to be able to climb stairs.)
    I raised this example earlier, to illustrate how sexist practices have often been perpetuated by women themselves. Yes, whether influenced by society or truly individual, men get to decide what they like in women. Women don't have to give it to them, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    As you could probably guess from the earlier portion of my post, I'm less on the "nature" side of the argument and more on the "nurture" side. "Weak" girls can very quickly become strong if they're surrounded by people and structures that encourage them to develop their strength.
    My remarks about biology are purely speculative. I read similar ideas from time to time, and wonder how much validity they have myself. Will try to think of some way to test this . . .
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #392
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I didn't make any such assumptions, but raised the question instead. I can say that my workplace is full of people who complain to anyone who will listen about things they don't like at work. Most of the complaints are legitimate - there is much disfunctionality where I work - but we won't solve anything just by griping to each other. Now come up with a specific and practical suggestion for correcting one of these problems, or at least work with me to find one, and I will support it 100%. Perhaps what I am saying is that the world is full of ineffective ways to address very serious problems. Obviously these won't help anyone, and may even play into the hands of those perpetuating the problems.
    True. In this case, we're stuck in a situation where we can't even agree that there's a problem -- let alone figure out how it can best be solved.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I raised this example earlier, to illustrate how sexist practices have often been perpetuated by women themselves.
    Ugh, this is what happens when you don't read the whole thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Yes, whether influenced by society or truly individual, men get to decide what they like in women. Women don't have to give it to them, though.
    Fair point! The problem is that, oftentimes, it's in the women's best interest to go with what the men want -- kind of like what you said above, about playing into the hands of the perpetuators.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    My remarks about biology are purely speculative. I read similar ideas from time to time, and wonder how much validity they have myself. Will try to think of some way to test this . . .
    Gotcha!
    That would be interesting. I haven't read any studies about it.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  3. #393
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    True. In this case, we're stuck in a situation where we can't even agree that there's a problem -- let alone figure out how it can best be solved.
    Interestingly, none of the unproductive responses in the cartoon assert that sexual harrassment is OK. Instead they question whether the given incident really was harrassment, or assert that "Bob" didn't really do it. Independent of the facts of any specific case, there is a broad, if not universal, consensus that sexual harrassment is a problem. The question then becomes what to do about it. I prefer to focus my efforts where they will get results.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Fair point! The problem is that, oftentimes, it's in the women's best interest to go with what the men want -- kind of like what you said above, about playing into the hands of the perpetuators.
    And when would be those times? If women, or any other oppressed group, prefer the security of their oppression to the risk of change, they should have no trouble keeping things as they are.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #394
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Interestingly, none of the unproductive responses in the cartoon assert that sexual harrassment is OK. Instead they question whether the given incident really was harrassment, or assert that "Bob" didn't really do it. Independent of the facts of any specific case, there is a broad, if not universal, consensus that sexual harrassment is a problem. The question then becomes what to do about it. I prefer to focus my efforts where they will get results.
    Ah, ok. I was thinking more broadly, to the point of being off topic. You're right. Though the disagreement on the cause of the problem still gets in the way of finding a solution. With victim-blaming and whatnot.

    Which isn't to say that I DON'T prefer getting results from my efforts. I'm just saying there's a lot standing in the way of results -- and those obstacles shouldn't be underestimated.
    And when would be those times? If women, or any other oppressed group, prefer the security of their oppression to the risk of change, they should have no trouble keeping things as they are.
    And oftentimes they do. In the case of women being sexually harassed, some of them might just get harassed more if they said anything, so they'd choose to stay quiet. Or in the case of women who want to get married -- they might change themselves and their behavior in the hopes of attracting a man, after too many years of trying to "be themselves" with no luck. Cost benefit analysis.

    So, it depends heavily on the environment. As of relatively recently, it's become more acceptable for victims of sexual harassment to talk about it, and get results from it -- which is how sites like Everyday Sexism can become popular.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  5. #395

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    @Coriolis This is a discussion forum and here, in this thread, is a discussion.

    I'm all for taking sexual harrassment seriously, but I BELIEVE the best responses come in the moment. Unless you are talking to someone who can do something about the situation, it is just venting, and I BELIEVE it is best to save this for understanding friends.
    I suppose I just don't have much patience with venting, or more accurately, unproductive rants. I BELIEVE True venting to friends to get something off your chest and get some moral support is constructive. I BELIEVE Otherwise, if you're not telling it to someone in a position to make a difference, it probably won't. Addressing harrassment as it occurs isn't limited to confronting the harrasser directly. It includes getting help, reporting him to a supervisor or other authority, calling the police if appropriate, even posting promptly and concisely to a relevant blog/twitter feed, etc. If I'm not that friend approached for venting, when I hear things like this, my first response is usually, "so what are you doing about it?"
    So this particular discussion is pointless to you for the above stated reasons. Okay. And other posters can share and discuss what they believe is relevant to themselves and the discussion. And other posters can also choose not to try to convince you that whatever they believe is relevant to the discussion, is in fact, relevant.

    But this begs the question, why are you remaining in a discussion that you believe is not constructive? To persuade others of this as well? Personally, when I see others engaging in (what I believe is) futility that doesn't directly impact me, I prefer to let them learn it for themselves rather than trying to convince them of it.
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  6. #396
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    The More Subtle Case
    As a teaching assistant most of the students are in their late teens or early twenties. Most of my fellow TAs are in the their mid to late twenties, and some in their thirties (like me). I have had three occasions now, when other male TAs remark to me how particular students I had in office hours or in my section were "hot", "too hot for [their] own good", or "really pretty girls" (note, the students were not around to hear this).

    So, what do you think? Was the second class of events (which I am sure I will come across more) sexist? What harm could this do? How ought we men behave differently here? Am I just being a prude?
    Since all you offer are 3 comments, which are presumably only shared amongst the TAs, it's impossible to assess the harm attached to their attitudes. As has already been mentioned, it's unprofessional, also, probably, universal.
    "hot" isn't esp. sexist
    "too hot for her own good" is*
    "really pretty girl" is not.

    *It suggests that she is "asking for trouble" by virtue of her attractiveness. There is a menacing quality absent from the rest. It betrays a 'victim-blaming' kind of mentality, an inability to take responsibility for one's own meat-lust. Also, it's unlikely that a young man would be described in this way. "Hot" is interesting in its projective connotations. When we say someone is hot, what we are really saying is they make us hot - we are describing our own physiological response, but projecting it onto the object of our desire. This is at the heart of much that is misogyny.
    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Why is it that fields that pride themselves on logic (engineering, computer science, math, physics, chemistry, philosophy to name a few), have so many horror stories of sexism?

    My current theory is that because they tend to be male dominated fields, there is a culture of aggressiveness, and being on the "top of the social hierarchy", that play some role.
    My current theory is that many men hate women. Or at best, disdain them. If a "mere" woman can do your job as well, if not better than you can, it makes you feel "less" of a man. Hence the need to keep women out of prestigious occupations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I suppose I just don't have much patience with venting, or more accurately, unproductive rants.
    Are you really this impenetrable?
    Venting, of the sort encouraged by the ESP, has already achieved something:-
    -it helps women and girls to understand what sexism is and that it's not ok and that they don't have to suffer in silence
    -it helps men as well as women get an idea of the scale of the problem
    -it has attracted media attention to the issue, keeping it on the agenda
    -it can galvanise political will
    -it gets results
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #397
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    And oftentimes they do. In the case of women being sexually harassed, some of them might just get harassed more if they said anything, so they'd choose to stay quiet. Or in the case of women who want to get married -- they might change themselves and their behavior in the hopes of attracting a man, after too many years of trying to "be themselves" with no luck. Cost benefit analysis.

    So, it depends heavily on the environment. As of relatively recently, it's become more acceptable for victims of sexual harassment to talk about it, and get results from it -- which is how sites like Everyday Sexism can become popular.
    I can understand how people in specific situations can find that the benefit of standing up for themselves does not outweigh the potential costs, and choose not to invest the resources or take the risk. There is wisdom in choosing one's battles, after all, but it is a choice. Everyone who takes the risk and expends the effort does a service for themselves and for others.

    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    @Coriolis This is a discussion forum and here, in this thread, is a discussion.

    So this particular discussion is pointless to you for the above stated reasons. Okay. And other posters can share and discuss what they believe is relevant to themselves and the discussion. And other posters can also choose not to try to convince you that whatever they believe is relevant to the discussion, is in fact, relevant.

    But this begs the question, why are you remaining in a discussion that you believe is not constructive? To persuade others of this as well? Personally, when I see others engaging in (what I believe is) futility that doesn't directly impact me, I prefer to let them learn it for themselves rather than trying to convince them of it.
    If I had meant "believe" I would have written it. You may choose to view my statement in this altered way, but that is your perspective, not mine. Are you still trying to apply my comments specifically about your cartoon to the entire thread? Or are you suggesting that the cartoon is a reasonable depiction of the comments in the thread? If you wish to take issue with my characterization of something as unconstructive, you would do well to make sure you are at least referring to the same thing. If you are truly curious as to my views on and interest in the broader discussion, you can review posts 114, 194, 200, 225, 228, 244, 302, 318, 376, and 381.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I suppose I just don't have much patience with venting, or more accurately, unproductive rants.
    Venting, of the sort encouraged by the ESP, has already achieved something:-
    -it helps women and girls to understand what sexism is and that it's not ok and that they don't have to suffer in silence
    -it helps men as well as women get an idea of the scale of the problem
    -it has attracted media attention to the issue, keeping it on the agenda
    -it can galvanise political will
    -it gets results
    If remarks produce the results you list here, they are obviously not unproductive, and therefore do not fall into the category of remark I am criticising.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #398
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    ...And this is why I go out of my way to not acknowledge women under any circumstance.

  9. #399
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duck_of_Death View Post
    ...And this is why I go out of my way to not acknowledge women under any circumstance.
    Time to bat for the other team, so you won't have to bother with this sort of political correctness?

    Oh wait...
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  10. #400
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Time to bat for the other team, so you won't have to bother with this sort of political correctness?

    Oh wait...
    So long as that other team doesn't possess an insufferable histrionic/martyr complex, we could be friends, I suppose.

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