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  1. #381
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Why is it that fields that pride themselves on logic (engineering, computer science, math, physics, chemistry, philosophy to name a few), have so many horror stories of sexism?

    My current theory is that because they tend to be male dominated fields, there is a culture of aggressiveness, and being on the "top of the social hierarchy", that play some role. Note that I do not believe these fields need to be this way. I like them because of their logic, symmetry, and power of application.
    Almost every field was male-dominated until recently, and no human is perfectly logical. Perhaps the more attuned or devoted to logic these men are, the harder it is for them to see the blind spot where they are not. That being said, I'm not sure women in these fields have it any harder than women in finance, journalism, ministry, etc. Women are making strides everywhere, and still encountering sexism, too.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #382
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    Interesting photo:


  3. #383

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    Here's a handy cartoon:

    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  4. #384
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    ^^ Just whom is this cartoon character supposed to be talking to? I'm all for taking sexual harrassment seriously, but the best responses come in the moment. Unless you are talking to someone who can do something about the situation, it is just venting, and it is best to save this for understanding friends.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #385
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    ^^ Just whom is this cartoon character supposed to be talking to? I'm all for taking sexual harrassment seriously, but the best responses come in the moment. Unless you are talking to someone who can do something about the situation, it is just venting, and it is best to save this for understanding friends.

    I thunk sexual harassment is a lot less cut and dry than youre making it out to be. There are definitely cases where the difference in power between harassed and harasser can make it difficult to handle things "in the moment". I also assume the woman in the cartoon isnt addressing herself directly to those speaking to her. Those voices are just whats being said about her which in these kinds of cases can be nearly as significant/damaging.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  6. #386
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    I suppose I just don't have much patience with venting, or more accurately, unproductive rants. True venting to friends to get something off your chest and get some moral support is constructive. Otherwise, if you're not telling it to someone in a position to make a difference, it probably won't. Addressing harrassment as it occurs isn't limited to confronting the harrasser directly. It includes getting help, reporting him to a supervisor or other authority, calling the police if appropriate, even posting promptly and concisely to a relevant blog/twitter feed, etc. If I'm not that friend approached for venting, when I hear things like this, my first response is usually, "so what are you doing about it?"
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #387

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I suppose I just don't have much patience with venting, or more accurately, unproductive rants. True venting to friends to get something off your chest and get some moral support is constructive. Otherwise, if you're not telling it to someone in a position to make a difference, it probably won't. Addressing harrassment as it occurs isn't limited to confronting the harrasser directly. It includes getting help, reporting him to a supervisor or other authority, calling the police if appropriate, even posting promptly and concisely to a relevant blog/twitter feed, etc. If I'm not that friend approached for venting, when I hear things like this, my first response is usually, "so what are you doing about it?"
    You think this thread has just been a series of unproductive rants and venting? Just the OP? Or certain arguments? Or___?
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  8. #388
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I suppose I just don't have much patience with venting, or more accurately, unproductive rants. True venting to friends to get something off your chest and get some moral support is constructive. Otherwise, if you're not telling it to someone in a position to make a difference, it probably won't. Addressing harrassment as it occurs isn't limited to confronting the harrasser directly. It includes getting help, reporting him to a supervisor or other authority, calling the police if appropriate, even posting promptly and concisely to a relevant blog/twitter feed, etc. If I'm not that friend approached for venting, when I hear things like this, my first response is usually, "so what are you doing about it?"
    A lot of times, the responses you get in those situations are exactly the responses the stick figure gets in the above cartoon. The stick figure is likely silent in the final panel because they have zero faith in anyone who might be able to help them.

    Also: there's nothing wrong with talking to friends to
    1) try and sort out your own feelings on the issue (because a lot of times people emerge from harassment situations not really knowing what to make of it, how to react, "was it really harassment?", "but they're usually never like that", etc); or
    2) see if your friends have advice for you! Maybe they know someone who wouldn't be dismissive and would actually be able to get Bob Smith to pay his dues?
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


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  9. #389
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    You think this thread has just been a series of unproductive rants and venting? Just the OP? Or certain arguments? Or___?
    My comment above applied specifically to the cartoon. I have other posts scattered on the thread that should make clear my thoughts on the thread as a whole.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    A lot of times, the responses you get in those situations are exactly the responses the stick figure gets in the above cartoon. The stick figure is likely silent in the final panel because they have zero faith in anyone who might be able to help them.

    Also: there's nothing wrong with talking to friends to
    1) try and sort out your own feelings on the issue (because a lot of times people emerge from harassment situations not really knowing what to make of it, how to react, "was it really harassment?", "but they're usually never like that", etc); or
    2) see if your friends have advice for you! Maybe they know someone who wouldn't be dismissive and would actually be able to get Bob Smith to pay his dues?
    My comment began by asking whom the cartoon figure is addressing. If she is getting these responses from friends, then she needs better friends. I already mentioned getting support from friends as a worthwhile response. If that is all one does, however, little will improve.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #390
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    My comment began by asking whom the cartoon figure is addressing. If she is getting these responses from friends, then she needs better friends. I already mentioned getting support from friends as a worthwhile response. If that is all one does, however, little will improve.
    I interpreted the stick figure as talking to friendly acquaintances, peers, coworkers, and people in power. Everyone except close friends and family. So that would include anyone who, in theory, would have the ability to solve the problem. (Thoughts from @iwakar?)

    Now, going back a bit...
    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Men are now and will always be the arbiters of what they find attractive in women.
    There's such a societal bias, too, though.

    This is a bit of an extreme example -- which only comes to mind b/c I recently listened to a podcast about it -- but consider foot-binding. A thousand years in which, seemingly, almost every man in China was turned on by tiny, deformed feet. A thousand years in which the vast majority of women were hobbled and mutilated during childhood, rendered almost unable to walk, and told they were the more desirable for it. That tradition influenced all levels of Chinese society; for example, it's the reason why so much of Chinese architecture only involves one floor. (If you can barely walk on your three-inch feet, you're not going to be able to climb stairs.)

    I'm sure someone, back then, wrote about how tiny, bound feet were objectively sexually attractive, completely natural for the human male. How this is the pinnacle of female beauty and it's only natural for that to be recognized in men. Just like how people have rationalized societal trends and moral fluctuations as being "natural" for as long as anyone can remember.

    I find many arguments regarding "inherent" gender differences/preferences to be at about the same level of validity as those claims about bound feet. So, I agree with @HelenOfTroy's recent points on a similar note.

    Edit: I may have misunderstood you, Disco. I will say that, yes, you have to account for differences in taste. It's not like ALL men are attracted to submissive women. But if a trend -- like the behaviors described in the Everyday Sexism blog -- is that widespread, we have to assume that it's either societal, or hormonal. And hormones let way, way too many dudes off the hook, in my opinion. ("Boys will be boys", etc.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    We stop giving reproductive preference to women who are weak, submissive, compliant, dependent, even pretty. Of course I am considering more here than physical performance. I am including strength on all levels, intelligence, independence, assertiveness, etc.
    Biological arguments. Interesting.

    As you could probably guess from the earlier portion of my post, I'm less on the "nature" side of the argument and more on the "nurture" side. "Weak" girls can very quickly become strong if they're surrounded by people and structures that encourage them to develop their strength.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    want to ask me something? go for it!

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