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  1. #371
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Our destiny as the biggest most powerful animal on Earth was sealed when we become inter-subjective.

    Once we learnt to share our minds, we became more powerful than any other animal.

    Of course we share our minds routinely, as a matter of course, and so our inter-subjectivity becomes invisible to us.

    We have forgotten how extraordinary this is.

    In other words our inter-subjectivity has become our environment, and all environments are invisible, yet form our every action.
    We're predators and we got where we are with forward facing eyes and the killing of other human-like species. Never forget that.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  2. #372

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    The examples I have are from education. One is a clear example of sexism. The other, I would like feedback on. It made me quite uncomfortable, but maybe I'm a prude:

    The Clear Cut Case
    My first year of engineering school, I was in an "Engineering Fundamentals" class that had only one woman in it. I thought this was odd. Worse, the professor asked to talk to the one woman after class. Next session, she was not there. I thought that was odd too. We went through the rest of the semester, and the professor seemed like a reasonable man and actually a very clear and experienced engineer and lecturer. It wasn't till the end of the semester that I found out he was a misogynist. Mind you this is hear-say, but I found out that the reason there were no women in his class was because he had tenure, and would say things to women like "I could teach engineering to dog better than to a girl."

    The More Subtle Case
    As a teaching assistant most of the students are in their late teens or early twenties. Most of my fellow TAs are in the their mid to late twenties, and some in their thirties (like me). I have had three occasions now, when other male TAs remark to me how particular students I had in office hours or in my section were "hot", "too hot for [their] own good", or "really pretty girls" (note, the students were not around to hear this).

    Call me "repressed" if you want, but these things make me quite uncomfortable. Indeed, I gave an uncomfortable laugh and agreed with them because if I allowed my mind to wander that direction, then indeed, I would have found the female students in question sexually attractive.

    Part of what made me uncomfortable was that I purposefully try to keep my focus on material and how well particular students are picking things up to the exclusion of everything else, and I presumed that's what others did too. I'm thinking, "She needs help understanding Dirac notation, but seems to be seeing how it is useful.", not "Damn, she's hot!"

    Granted, all three of the TAs that made these sort of remarks are better liked by the students than me. They are among the most popular TAs(one of them is married and even openly flirts with his students, and they seem to like that), while I am often described as cold.

    However, I want to maintain a degree of professionalism, and that is difficult to do if I am paying attention to how attractive my students are. I should add that all three of these TAs fit one of the archetypes of "attractive men", while I do not. One remarked that I should teach high school because all the girls love you (Mind you, I'm pretty sure he meant taking it as a complement, not actual relations with them). Another, also made mention of a movie (that I was not familiar with) where the one of the characters said something like, "I keep getting older, but they stay the same age." --there is a particular inflection to it that indicated sexual innuendo.

    So, what do you think? Was the second class of events (which I am sure I will come across more) sexist? What harm could this do? How ought we men behave differently here? Am I just being a prude?

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  3. #373
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    The examples I have are from education. One is a clear example of sexism. The other, I would like feedback on. It made me quite uncomfortable, but maybe I'm a prude:

    The Clear Cut Case
    My first year of engineering school, I was in an "Engineering Fundamentals" class that had only one woman in it. I thought this was odd. Worse, the professor asked to talk to the one woman after class. Next session, she was not there. I thought that was odd too. We went through the rest of the semester, and the professor seemed like a reasonable man and actually a very clear and experienced engineer and lecturer. It wasn't till the end of the semester that I found out he was a misogynist. Mind you this is hear-say, but I found out that the reason there were no women in his class was because he had tenure, and would say things to women like "I could teach engineering to dog better than to a girl."

    The More Subtle Case
    As a teaching assistant most of the students are in their late teens or early twenties. Most of my fellow TAs are in the their mid to late twenties, and some in their thirties (like me). I have had three occasions now, when other male TAs remark to me how particular students I had in office hours or in my section were "hot", "too hot for [their] own good", or "really pretty girls" (note, the students were not around to hear this).

    Call me "repressed" if you want, but these things make me quite uncomfortable. Indeed, I gave an uncomfortable laugh and agreed with them because if I allowed my mind to wander that direction, then indeed, I would have found the female students in question sexually attractive.

    Part of what made me uncomfortable was that I purposefully try to keep my focus on material and how well particular students are picking things up to the exclusion of everything else, and I presumed that's what others did too. I'm thinking, "She needs help understanding Dirac notation, but seems to be seeing how it is useful.", not "Damn, she's hot!"

    Granted, all three of the TAs that made these sort of remarks are better liked by the students than me. They were among the most popular TAs(one of them is married and even openly flirts with his students, and they seem to like that), while I am often described as cold.

    However, I want to maintain a degree of professionalism, and that is difficult to do if I am paying attention to how attractive my students are. I should add that all three of these TAs fit one of the archetypes of "attractive men", while I do not. One remarked that I should teach high school because all the girls love you (Mind you, I'm pretty sure he meant taking it as a complement, not actual relations with them). Another, also made mention of a movie (that I was not familiar with) where the one of the characters said something like, "I keep getting older, but they stay the same age." --there is a particular inflection to it that indicated sexual innuendo.

    So, what do you think? Was the second class of events (which I am sure I will come across more) sexist? What harm could this do? How ought we men behave differently here? Am I just being a prude?
    I don't know if it's really sexism is the sense of someone holding a lower opinion of a particular sex or acting out discrimination against them. Regardless of being sexist, though, I find it creepy when TAs and even people as high as tenured professors treat their classes like a farm for attractive young sexual partners, and I swear every university has at least one professor who does that. It is unprofessional and borders on predatory.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  4. #374
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    We're predators and we got where we are with forward facing eyes and the killing of other human-like species. Never forget that.
    On the other hand our inter-subjectivity has enabled extraordinary and prolonged co-operation such as literacy and electronic communication.

    Individually we are weak and poor predators, but when we unite our minds, we become the most powerful animal on the planet, for good and ill.

  5. #375
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    We're predators and we got where we are with forward facing eyes and the killing of other human-like species. Never forget that.
    I'm not sure that forward-facing eyes are a reliable indication of being a predator, if that's what you're suggesting. A lot of non-carnivorous primates have forward-facing eyes. Like the orangutan. I think the need for accurate depth-perception when climbing (to get away from predators) is more likely the evolutionary driver of our forward-facing eyes.

    /derail

  6. #376
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    The examples I have are from education. One is a clear example of sexism. The other, I would like feedback on. It made me quite uncomfortable, but maybe I'm a prude
    If this second case negatively impacts the women students, it is sexism. Examples are if it causes the other TAs to think less of the women, regardless of the quality of their work, or if the women become aware of the remarks and are made to feel out of place and therefore uncomfortable. In a broader sense, it is unprofessional. Yes, people will form all kinds of opinions about other people, and sexual attractiveness can make a strong impression, but professionalism includes saving such comments for the right time and place. As a student, I would much prefer your approach, and perhaps was lucky in never feeling set apart, looked down on, or harassed by any of my TAs or professors.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #377

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    If this second case negatively impacts the women students, it is sexism. Examples are if it causes the other TAs to think less of the women, regardless of the quality of their work, or if the women become aware of the remarks and are made to feel out of place and therefore uncomfortable. In a broader sense, it is unprofessional. Yes, people will form all kinds of opinions about other people, and sexual attractiveness can make a strong impression, but professionalism includes saving such comments for the right time and place. As a student, I would much prefer your approach, and perhaps was lucky in never feeling set apart, looked down on, or harassed by any of my TAs or professors.
    I am glad your experience was good. Actually, most women I've talked to have had decent experiences.

    However, looking through the forum, I found a thread that @Orangey started a couple of years ago.

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...te-school.html

    Why is it that fields that pride themselves on logic (engineering, computer science, math, physics, chemistry, philosophy to name a few), have so many horror stories of sexism?

    My current theory is that because they tend to be male dominated fields, there is a culture of aggressiveness, and being on the "top of the social hierarchy", that play some role. Note that I do not believe these fields need to be this way. I like them because of their logic, symmetry, and power of application.

    I have had opportunities to take biotech and some biology classes. Although these classes can be competitive grade wise, I found that the motivations were more exclusively about making a difference and excitement about advances. Certainly these are big motivations in the other fields too, and among the technical people in industry, I saw little of the petty "pecking order" crap. Academia (and middle management in industry) is a different story though.

    EDIT:A minor edit ate most of my post. I don't remember everything I typed, and don't feel like redoing it.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  8. #378
    Warflower Nijntje's Avatar
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    Terrible things happen to good people every day.
    Consequentially, I am not one of the good people.
    I am one of the terrible things.
    .



    Conclusion: Dinosaurs


  9. #379
    Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nijntje View Post
    Hawt.

  10. #380
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Found this link in my twitter feed this morning. Kind of related.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

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