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  1. #261
    Warflower Nijntje's Avatar
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    @Lexicon the only question i ask about the female "cheer up!!" (which by the way, shits me to no end) is do they know you or are you being approached by strange women on the street?

    I ask, because I tend to find the inappropriate advice comes from co-workers and women who don't know me very well. Just wondering if this is the same for you?

    Terrible things happen to good people every day.
    Consequentially, I am not one of the good people.
    I am one of the terrible things.
    .



    Conclusion: Dinosaurs


  2. #262
    Temporal Mechanic. Lexicon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nijntje View Post
    @Lexicon the only question i ask about the female "cheer up!!" (which by the way, shits me to no end) is do they know you or are you being approached by strange women on the street?

    I ask, because I tend to find the inappropriate advice comes from co-workers and women who don't know me very well. Just wondering if this is the same for you?
    I'd say it's about 50/50 in my personal experiences. Women who know me, or just women I'm near like, in line at a store, or sitting across from on a bus, or cashiers, waitresses. Women at a party who I don't even know. The fashion advice I mentioned is definitely more with women I'm at least vaguely familiar with. But the "You're so pretty, smile!" - I've gotten from strangers of either gender about equally. I can see how it can be taken as sexist, absolutely- but like I said, I try to figure out in the moment that person's motivation behind saying it. If they're just seeing a sad person & hoping to distract them by offering some [albeit vapid] complimentary remark.

    All about the context, I guess. Nuances like demeanor, eye contact, body language play a crucial role in determining these things. No one else was with you in the situation you described, so I mean, that's definitely your call (and totally valid), no one else's, due to these external factors we're just not privy to.

    I even had a couple older women suggest I get into modeling, when I was at my brother's wake. No idea who they were (probably some friends of my grandma's? idk); it was fucking bizarre. Experiences like that further indicate to me that humans in general can be ridiculously tactless when trying to say something upbeat when in/around an unpleasant situation.


    Maybe this is a bit offtopic, but I wonder if/how much regional variations (not necessarily countries- more like, rural small towns/suburbs/big cities) play a role in how comfortable people in general are with commenting to other people about their emotional state...
    03/23 06:06:58 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:06:59 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:21:34 Nancynobullets: LEXXX *sacrifices a first born*
    03/23 06:21:53 Nancynobullets: We summon yooouuu
    03/23 06:29:07 Lexicon: I was sleeping!



    04/25 04:20:35 Patches: Don't listen to lex. She wants to birth a litter of kittens. She doesnt get to decide whats creepy

    02/16 23:49:38 ygolo: Lex is afk
    02/16 23:49:45 Cimarron: she's doing drugs with Jack

    03/05 19:27:41 Time: You can't make chat morbid. Lex does it naturally.

  3. #263
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    "Bebonered", ok, I'm stealing that. Also, I'm thinking of marketing a new line in cocktraps. Kind of like a fanny pack, but with teeth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lexicon View Post
    I've had people of both genders tell me this. Often with a guy, it's some awkward attempt to try to make me feel better if I appear overtly down, or tired, or something. Usually that kind of clumsiness is something you can pick up on easily. When the motivation seems like they're genuinely just seeing a stranger sad, & are trying to offer some kind of flippant/cheery remark so as not to be too invasive, but distract the person a moment from their woes, how can I feel insulted? ...
    I've had women tell me to smile, too.
    ...
    "YOU'RE SO PRETTY- YOU REALLY SHOULD SMIIIIIILE MORE." Why? Fuck you,
    Why do you offer men understanding but women a "fuck you"? Or did you just increasingly realise as you were posting how annoying that shit is?

    Unsurprisingly, I get told to smile more. Usually by men: "Smile! It might never happen!"
    "Fuck off, it just did!"

    I've also been told that my smile is so 'dangerously seductive' that if I do it anymore, one male colleague "won't be responsible for his actions" to include throwing me up against the vending machine and other charming delights. I understand men regard this as "workplace flirting".
    I file it safely under Damned if you do....
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  4. #264
    Temporal Mechanic. Lexicon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Why do you offer men understanding but women a "fuck you"? Or did you just increasingly realise as you were posting how annoying that shit is?
    Sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear enough in my ramblings: Generally I feel irked by the suggestion to "smile!" when it's immediately followed up by some kind of advice. In my personal experience, that advice has been most often dispensed to me by women. When women just say "aw you're pretty, you should smile more!" (& it's left at that, like some kind of vague encouragement, I guess) I give them the same benefit of the doubt I extend to men. It's only a bother in that I don't know how to react to it, overtly, since if I do feel badly, I'm apt to not feel much better from the remark, but I do appreciate their trying, on some level. If that makes sense. Sometimes I wish I could approach a stranger & offer them some kind of consolation, but it's just not something I'm comfortable doing, nor do I know if it'd be well received. I have respect for those who give it a try, I guess, even if it doesn't produce the desired effect. It can be nice to see someone go out of their way to show someone out there cares, in a way.

    Unsurprisingly, I get told to smile more. Usually by men: "Smile! It might never happen!"
    "Fuck off, it just did!"


    I've also been told that my smile is so 'dangerously seductive' that if I do it anymore, one male colleague "won't be responsible for his actions" to include throwing me up against the vending machine and other charming delights. I understand men regard this as "workplace flirting".
    I file it safely under Damned if you do....
    Yeah, that's pretty damn offensive, to me. Overall, I find workplace flirtation uncomfortable & inappropriate. Just more potential for misunderstandings/various conflicts/intrusions than any remote benefit (from "innocent fun"). Not just between coworkers, but also if you deal with customers/the public. I mean, if you're at your job, people know you can't exactly just leave, or even tell them to go away. I get annoyed when people take advantage of that situation, & put someone on the spot, asking for contact info, etc.
    03/23 06:06:58 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:06:59 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:21:34 Nancynobullets: LEXXX *sacrifices a first born*
    03/23 06:21:53 Nancynobullets: We summon yooouuu
    03/23 06:29:07 Lexicon: I was sleeping!



    04/25 04:20:35 Patches: Don't listen to lex. She wants to birth a litter of kittens. She doesnt get to decide whats creepy

    02/16 23:49:38 ygolo: Lex is afk
    02/16 23:49:45 Cimarron: she's doing drugs with Jack

    03/05 19:27:41 Time: You can't make chat morbid. Lex does it naturally.

  5. #265
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    ^Gotcha.
    Oh yes, with the talk of awkward stalking, I just wanted to mention STARING. Don't. It's rude. Most people learn this amongst their first lessons in social propriety. So why do so many adult males continue to do it ?
    It's recognised across species as a predatory, antagonistic action. If you did it to a grizzly you'd be gored. If you did it to a gangster you'd be shot. I've had men stare at me under some deluded notion that it will get me hot. Actually, it does. With rage. And an overwhelming desire to do grievous bodily harm. Just don't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #266
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    The speculation can end. Someone did some science.

    (This is hilarious.)
    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013...ef=mostpopular
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #267
    Temporal Mechanic. Lexicon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    The speculation can end. Someone did some science.

    (This is hilarious.)
    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013...ef=mostpopular
    For some reason that reminds me of this "experiment"/prank:

    Nobody in Boston Wants Free Money
    03/23 06:06:58 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:06:59 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:21:34 Nancynobullets: LEXXX *sacrifices a first born*
    03/23 06:21:53 Nancynobullets: We summon yooouuu
    03/23 06:29:07 Lexicon: I was sleeping!



    04/25 04:20:35 Patches: Don't listen to lex. She wants to birth a litter of kittens. She doesnt get to decide whats creepy

    02/16 23:49:38 ygolo: Lex is afk
    02/16 23:49:45 Cimarron: she's doing drugs with Jack

    03/05 19:27:41 Time: You can't make chat morbid. Lex does it naturally.

  8. #268
    Senior Member Robopop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nijntje View Post
    I cannot even begin to address the “women are picky, men will fuck anything” and “sex is easier for women” adage that you’re throwing around there, in a SEXISM thread, because words fail me. If you don’t realise how sexist and insulting that is to both men and women, then dear god I hope you’re trolling me.
    What I said was not meant to be offensive or sexist but it is generally true, not for every single individual but for the majority, there's even a biological principle behind this called Bateman's principle :
    By and large, a male’s potential reproductive success is limited by the number of females he mates with, whereas a female’s potential reproductive success is limited by how many eggs she can produce. This results in sexual selection, in which males compete with each other, and females become choosy in which males to mate with. As a result of being anisogamous, males are fundamentally promiscuous, and females are fundamentally selective.


    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    He's not trolling you, he's just a clueless INTP.
    I knew I should have put like INFP or ENFJ for my MBTI before replying to this thread. Yeah, I'm a clueless INTP who's not stuck in some theoretical fantasy land and actually knows what's going on around me.
    Reserved Calm Unstructured Egocentric Inquisitive Clown

    Johari Nohari

  9. #269
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Men also have the biological urge to brain each other with mammoth femurs. But that's not where evolution ended for us. At some point after that development, we got these big-ass brains, and they allowed us to build civilizations. Thanks to civilizations we now expect people to rise above their biology. "Biology is not destiny," as the saying goes.

  10. #270
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    What was it about the encounter that made you feel harassed?
    This took place over a period time, but basically she told me that she 'just got off the phone with [her] friend' who was "having an affair with a contractor", essentially suggesting that she wanted to cheat on her husband with me. While nothing was explicitly stated, when I rejected this advance ("when people are having issues in their relationship I think it's best they work on them directly instead of going outside the relationship") her tone towards me changed dramatically (further reinforcing that she wasn't just talking about 'a friend'). (And ultimately I never was able to collect a small sum for a few hours of outstanding work).

    Because it's not, for the reasons you go on to expound : being "a good husband" is about being capable. Being "a good wife" carries a more derogatory meaning. Because of this, it's used to insult men, or irritate women - my uncle said this to me recently when I was caring for my sick mother, just to try to get a rise. Even when it's used to insult men*, the sexism implicit is against women. You get that, right?
    It's dependent on context. Someone might say "you're a good wife" in a derogatory way, but this can also be said admiringly - "you're a good cook, you did a great job setting things up around here, you cleaned up great, you'd make a great wife." This tends to link back to gender roles. But someone could say the exact same thing (altered to 'husband') to a man, too.

    So sometimes I've been complimented and it seems like they are generally just stating "you're capable and that's desirable" (can be flirting) but other times it takes on sexist connotations, especially when combined with comments that suggest 'women need a strong man like you'.

    (Which I commented on in the full quote.)

    Right here:

    Quote Originally Posted by me
    However there is an underlying assumption that sometimes goes with that, that I must really desire the sort of "girly girl" who is dumb or incapable and that she couldn't or wouldn't do the things I was doing herself (people have suggested this in a roundabout way).
    So yes, I do see the difference, but context can create nuance.

    What does this have to do with sexism?
    Their comments and behavior in this situation seemed to suggest that these girls thought I was being sexist towards them by suggesting how to load their truck. In fact, everyone who pulls up - I generally make suggestions. It's a group activity, because I'm working with them, so our actions need to be coordinated to be effective. Ultimately, I'll always defer to the customer's wants, regardless of how inept they seem (though I'll tend to back away from the situation to remove myself from liability, as in the case of one guy who claimed to be a former tow truck driver and insisted on tying an item to his roof rack in a configuration that seemed doomed to cause an accident, despite my suggestions). As stated, this example was a "flipside" - those girls probably drove off thinking that I was some sort of sexist jerk.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

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