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  1. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    Occasionally I get comments regarding my work along the lines of "you'd make a good husband"
    My own father has joked that "I would make a good wife," or "make for quite a good domestic." Apparently doing general household cleaning and washing my own laundry makes me less of a man. I wonder what being a lazy, absentee fuck makes him...

    I recall a conversation I had with another man about why his washing machine smelled funny. I told him to run an empty load with some bleach through it, and from then on whenever he was finished he should leave the door open to let the drum air out. Another guy party to the conversation chortled and condescendingly said "My wife does the laundry." :/

  2. #252
    Senior Member Robopop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Sorry that has happened to you, and it sounds like it could be sexist. There is a different context for female sexism, but even within each gender there are many different levels of power to impose their prejudice, so I don't think it could ever be a completely categorized issue.
    Well unfortunately a lot of african-americans have an internalized intra-racism(also called colorism) against dark skin, lighter skin is highly valued, some procreate with whites or hispanics just to have mixed children with "good" hair and fair eyes. It's been worse on darker skinned black women because darker skin is associated with masculinity, this hurts them in the dating area but they have also had more latitude to display more dominant and aggressive behaviors compared to white women. Black women have a very different gender role compared with white women, they've taken more masculine roles because of slavery and the "masculinization" of the black race, which ironically puts their gender role nearer to black men than it is for white men and white women.
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  3. #253
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robopop View Post
    I've had many females make fun of my appearance and complexion but I guess that's not sexist because it's impossible for females to be sexist according to some feminists. I guess that could be called racist because it's usually been lighter skinned females making negative comments about my very dark skin tone but there is a gendered element too.
    I think this is called blaming the victim, and is a tried and true way for misogynists.

  4. #254
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 93JC View Post
    My own father has joked that "I would make a good wife," or "make for quite a good domestic." Apparently doing general household cleaning and washing my own laundry makes me less of a man. I wonder what being a lazy, absentee fuck makes him...

    I recall a conversation I had with another man about why his washing machine smelled funny. I told him to run an empty load with some bleach through it, and from then on whenever he was finished he should leave the door open to let the drum air out. Another guy party to the conversation chortled and condescendingly said "My wife does the laundry." :/
    Yeah there's a lot of BS that goes into this. I clean my own house, I'm not the neatest person ever but I keep things straight overall.

    Yeah, leave the washer open so it doesn't get moldy.

    I know how to use a sewing machine - sewing is a useful skill. But people see it as women's work. Despite the fact that when it comes down to it all the basics of planning, layout, measuring and marking at basically the same in sewing as they are in carpentry.

    I know nothing about sports. A girl and guy at a bar asked me about my team. I said I don't watch regularly. The girl asked me, "Are you a man?" at which point I grabbed my crotch with a confused look and said "Gee, I think so?".*

    (*Ok that didn't happen. But I thought about it 30 seconds later.)



    I grew up moving furniture a lot, packing trucks, all that. Sometimes I think there is a place for "machoism"** while you're working - sometimes the best solution really is to just buckle down, grunt, and heave. Don't be scared. Do it. But most the time, it's the macho guys on the crew acting tough "being a man" who are causing problems. Instead of asking for help they do something stupid and hurt themselves and then the whole crew suffers because we are down a man and everyone has to work that much harder. It's a pain.

    **The thing is, do you need machoism to deal with a problem in a very direct way? Not really. But that mindset of "we gotta do this and we're gonna do this", applied reasonably, can be useful, and that can come bundled with machoism or look like machoism.

    Though to some extent does testosterone get involved in this? Possibly. I've worked with very few girls in this regard
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  5. #255
    Warflower Nijntje's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robopop View Post
    To the OP, I think if a fairly attractive woman told some random guy, "smile, you're too handsome to frown" most men would see this as extremely desirable.
    Women are socialized to be far more selective in potential mates while a man's sexual orientation might come in to question by a lot of people if he refuses a sexual advance from a female. If the man was normal looking and handsome instead of being strange would this change the situation?
    This usually means it is easier for most women to get laid while men face rejection more often.

    I’ve been thinking about this one for a while, and needed to write a reply when I felt less stabby and was able to construct a coherent sentence. And i'm still not sure this actually qualifies as coherency.

    I’m not sure why only one of my examples is being used to highlight against sexism. Is it because it is arguably the most subjective of them, and in as such, the subjectivity of it means that the person writing about it only sees it through their own point of view, rather than the viewpoint of the person who it has made an impact on?

    Because it seems to be such an issue with people understanding why it may be offensive or even just intrusive, I will break it down for you (and others).

    Firstly, I would like to say, yes, it can be flattering when someone compliments you, GENUINELY compliments you. I will relate how that can happen.

    I get a lot of compliments on my tattoo’s during summer (when they are visible), and generally when people approach me about them, they start with something along the lines of

    “I’m sorry to bother,” or

    “Do you mind if I?” or

    “Wow! Excuse me, but I just wanted to say”…

    They all come with a qualifier that allows me to have some control over the situation and that they acknowledge that they are entering my personal zone. I’m proud of my tattoos. However, I didn’t get them for anyone else’s pleasure but my own, just like, sometimes I like to look nice, maybe wear some makeup or do my hair, or you know, not look like a fucking slob (which is what I generally look like) for my own pleasure, but it is nice when there is a genuine compliment.

    This however, does not apply when someone uses say my tattoos as a pick up line, or infers some internalised desire about me, - a person with tattoos as being or behaving in a particular way (like I am easy to get into bed, or I am interested in you sexually just because you also have tattoos – I don’t and I’m not). Using my assumed emotional reading as a precursor to trying to pick me up is not welcome.

    Let me illustrate why it becomes tiresome and why it is not a welcome tactic (as you seem to be under the impression that it is a welcome pick up tactic as you have indicated that you would welcome a GOOD LOOKING person saying this to you.)

    Lets say you’re having a bad day, a genuinely bad day, for whatever reason you are just not in a smiling mood. Perhaps you got some bad news, maybe you’ve just been fired. Perhaps you’re clinically depressed and it is all you can do to not kill yourself, maybe you just found out that you have cancer, maybe someone close to you has cancer, maybe it’s something as trivial as stepping in a fucking puddle on a rainy day and having to deal with wet feet. Everyone gets cranky, doesn’t have to be a huge reason. Sometimes you just want to be left the fuck alone.

    So, in this state of looking rather grim, possibly reading a book or playing on your phone or ipod, or whatever, a stranger takes the opportunity to interrupt you, move into your personal space and instead of asking how you are, If I you are okay, or possibly if they could help, they effectively reduce you to the most superficial sum of your parts. How you look.

    This is a person who deems it necessary to reduce me and my mood down to what could be construed as interrupting their viewing pleasure, OR as you have indicated a motherfucking pick up line.

    Now, imagine you’ve been having interactions like this since you grew boobs. Which in my case, was at approximately 11 years of age. Now imagine, since that point, every time you have been in public you've been stared at, shouted at, leered at, hit on and otherwise, and maybe on this particular day you just aren’t in the best mood (it happens to everyone), no one actually asks how you are (as if you were actually a person), just that you should “Smile, you’re too pretty to frown” (because you’ve now been reduced to an object devoid of meaningful feelings), for oh, lets say, twenty years?

    After that length of time, I have to tell you, IT GETS FUCKING OLD, and I also have to say, it doesn’t make a damned bit of difference what the person looks like. You could literally be Brad Pitt and I would tell you to fuck off.

    I cannot even begin to address the “women are picky, men will fuck anything” and “sex is easier for women” adage that you’re throwing around there, in a SEXISM thread, because words fail me. If you don’t realise how sexist and insulting that is to both men and women, then dear god I hope you’re trolling me.

    Terrible things happen to good people every day.
    Consequentially, I am not one of the good people.
    I am one of the terrible things.
    .



    Conclusion: Dinosaurs


  6. #256
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    He's not trolling you, he's just a clueless INTP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Robopop View Post
    To the OP, I think if a fairly attractive woman told some random guy, "smile, you're too handsome to frown" most men would see this as extremely desirable.
    -As has been explained, you can't really strip the statement from the context. Context is everything.
    -I can't think of a single woman who would do this - we tend to leave grumpy-looking dudes at bus stops alone, also it's just wrong. We might smile at someone, if we want to engage them, but if they look away, we tend to read the situation and back off. Men should be more sensitive to whether their company is desired or not (because they can be seen to be more threatening ) yet they frequently are less sensitive.
    Even if you can't understand why, just understand that your chances of success with such a line are approximately zero.

    Women are socialized to be far more selective in potential mates
    I actually think this has more to do with biology than socialization.
    while a man's sexual orientation might come in to question by a lot of people if he refuses a sexual advance from a female.
    Since most advances are private affairs, I think this an unlikely reason. Are you saying men feel pressured to have sex with every interested woman in case someone thinks they are gay? Because I don't buy it.
    If the man was normal looking and handsome instead of being strange would this change the situation?
    -"Strange" relates to the degree of familiarity between the parties, not "weirdness".
    -It wouldn't change it substantially. For most women considerate behaviour carries more weight than physical attractiveness.

    This usually means it is easier for most women to get laid while men face rejection more often.
    It's also easier to get raped. Wanna trade?
    Because, when standing at bus stops, we are generally not looking to get laid, if some strange man approaches us with this in mind, it's unpleasant and rude, if not threatening.

    When he then turns around and starts screaming abuse, it definitely turns threatening. It's utterly deplorable that this kind of thing happens at all. But it's not an isolated event. It has happened to me. It happens to women every day.

    In fact, harassment of women by men on public transport is considered so much an 'occupational hazard' that you're just expected to deal with, that I've been told by bus drivers to make sure I don't have a seat next to me to avoid being groped by a known offender who regularly rides the route. Rather than refuse to carry someone who is, essentially, a criminal, women are expected to take precautions, because "boys will be boys" (and girls can just get fucked).

    It's much worse in other countries. If you ride a bus in Italy and you're a woman, you will be groped, minimum. Have you ever browsed through a travel book and read the "Advice for women travelling alone" section? Do you know there are places that are off limits if you're a woman, because just showing up is "asking" to be raped? Doesn't it strike you as kinda fucked in the head that women have to think about this stuff? How would you feel if every travel book or brochure you read contained "Advice for black people travelling alone?" Can you imagine ? It insults men as much as women. Like all men are fucking rabid animals that can't be controlled so best be avoided. Check out this article about the experience of travelling as a single woman:
    I was lucky. I never got badly hurt, sick or was robbed or raped. I met a more than a few women with broken spirits and bruised faces, that had to cut their trips short and go home because terrible things happened to them. The risks I took ran the gamut from smart and calculated to stupid and lucky to occasionally unknown to me until after the fact.
    If you're a woman, you're "lucky" if you don't get raped or beaten up if you dare to travel on your own. Also "stupid".
    Fuck. That. Shit.

    ETA This part is funny: "5. Dress inconspicuously - no flashy clothes or bags. You don't want to look wealthy or sexy unless you are staying at an International five star hotel with good security." considering that I've been assaulted BY a security guard at an International five star hotel, who managed to find me sexy in spite of my lack of flashy clothes / bags, I cannot endorse this message.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #257
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Sorry that has happened to you, and it sounds like it could be sexist.
    Surely, it would only be sexist if women didn't do this to other women? Since they do, they aren't discriminating on the basis of gender, therefore, it's not sexist. They are discriminating on the basis of beauty - which is so much the norm as to not even be worthy of an -ism...
    We only incorporate this into our ideas about sexism against women, because it disproportionately affects women.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    As far as I'm concerned he already made himself look bad by agreeing to do something he didn't want to or could not do, but sometimes I notice that the wife simply unfairly expects the husband to take on jobs that he's really not capable of.
    This is sexism.

    * I've been sexually harassed by one client who cornered me in the basement, which on some level I did find amusing in retrospect
    What was it about the encounter that made you feel harassed?

    Occasionally I get comments regarding my work along the lines of "you'd make a good husband" which I don't necessarily find sexist.
    Because it's not, for the reasons you go on to expound : being "a good husband" is about being capable. Being "a good wife" carries a more derogatory meaning. Because of this, it's used to insult men, or irritate women - my uncle said this to me recently when I was caring for my sick mother, just to try to get a rise. Even when it's used to insult men*, the sexism implicit is against women. You get that, right?

    when they were done loading they commented to each other something along the lines of "yeah, girls can do this" and gave me stink-eye. I tried to smile politely, even though their packing was abysmal. Sure, girls can pack, but these girls couldn't.
    What does this have to do with sexism?

    *for example
    Quote Originally Posted by 93JC View Post
    My own father has joked that "I would make a good wife," or "make for quite a good domestic." Apparently doing general household cleaning and washing my own laundry makes me less of a man.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #258
    Warflower Nijntje's Avatar
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    God, i didn't even cover the threatening aspect of pubic transport. Or the fact that i ALWAYS put my groceries/handbag/whatever on the seat next to me and avoid eye contact to not be seen as 'encouraging' anyone on public transport.

    I've had instances where guy would literally surround me on emptier busses (one behind, one in front and one next to me) and start up with the whole "how's it going, where are you going, you're looking hot/sexy/whatever, come party with us" deal. Then when i don't want to engage, i'm a fucking stuck up cunt who (and someone has actually said this) deserves to be raped.

    Nice huh?

    Terrible things happen to good people every day.
    Consequentially, I am not one of the good people.
    I am one of the terrible things.
    .



    Conclusion: Dinosaurs


  9. #259
    Temporal Mechanic. Lexicon's Avatar
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    I dunno if this is relatable in the thread or not, but I've heard on several occasions from females in my life, about their spouse or live-in boyfriend:

    "If [s/o] would just DO HIS PART and BE A MAN... "

    Semantically, it irks me. I know, overall, they typically mean, 'why can't this individual be a good PARTNER, be a MATURE ADULT, pull his weight.' -expressing a sense of imbalance in the relationship that needs to be addressed. But instead of saying it that way, it's "be a MAN." I don't feel like it's necessarily insulting to either gender directly, per se.. but it has some distant echo of ignorance to me, on some level. Not quite sure how to articulate the feeling. Just sounds.. dumb. I'll note I haven't ever heard males in my life voice their similar complaints about a partner in this gender-focused regard, though I'm sure some would argue that it's done with more subtlety on their part. I couldn't say, honestly.

    I've gotten more flak over the years from females in my life for financially assisting my s/o's (or even just male friends) if the need arose. If I can help someone I care about, & I know they will use that to truly help themselves, I see no problem with it. Occasionally, I've been met with extremely self-righteous, obtuse, & outright disgusted reactions from females- HE should be helping *YOU*!! I get the blank stare, when I ask what the harm is in helping someone I love, when I know they'd do the same for me when they can. It's absurd to me. Honestly, I lose some degree of respect for those people, after such conversations have transpired. If nothing else, that haughty sense of entitlement perpetuates any ongoing notion that females are the "weaker sex."


    As for looking unhappy & someone pointing it out/suggesting I smile- sure, there can be sexist connotations, there. Depends on the instilled perspectives of the deliverer, imo. I try to take such remarks on a case-by-case basis. I've had people of both genders tell me this. Often with a guy, it's some awkward attempt to try to make me feel better if I appear overtly down, or tired, or something. Usually that kind of clumsiness is something you can pick up on easily. When the motivation seems like they're genuinely just seeing a stranger sad, & are trying to offer some kind of flippant/cheery remark so as not to be too invasive, but distract the person a moment from their woes, how can I feel insulted? Perhaps they're just generally more directive than I am in how they word things. No, it's not my style, but I can't fault them for that difference in expression. I have to wonder if men address one another's glumness in public settings less often because it's still generally frowned upon for men to show/acknowledge emotions at all. I mean, it does happen.. I've seen male friends just compliment a lone, blue looking guy. "ey, nice shirt! That's fuckin' metal \m/!" or "hey dude.. cheer up!" Certainly seems less common, however.


    I've had women tell me to smile, too. A lot- and more often to not really cheer me up in the moment, but to ensure I will attract a mate to "keep me happy" in the longterm. Many females try to get me to look more approachable to people- but especially to/for men. Either by suggesting I stop wearing my graphic tee shirts & don some "cute tops!" - or changing my wallet/chain over to a purse ("so guys don't think you're a dyke") - or suggesting I alter my facial expressions/walk/demeanor. Even when I'm not unhappy- I'm just neutral, likely somewhere else in my head. "YOU'RE SO PRETTY- YOU REALLY SHOULD SMIIIIIILE MORE." Why? Fuck you, I don't need to walk around with a grin plastered across my face just to make you feel like you helped someone become more socially palatable. Eat shit. (I'll note, one of the women who told me this, had also accosted me before at some obligatory event, as I sat on the side with a book, "OMG Y R U READING? R U SAD? U NEED TO SMIIIIILE MORE, U'LL HAVE MOAR FUN!") - while that's not necessarily related to sexism, I couldn't resist sharing an anecdote that further illustrates how idiotic some people's projections, & concepts of assisting their fellowmen can be. I can't be bothered to feel offended by sheer idiocy. I just. . . walk away.



    On another note, I've had to explain to some less socially adept young men over the years, that the shy/distant staring, or following a girl around, yet not having the nerve to come up & converse with her can be very alarming for a female. One guy would do this at one of my old places of employment. Other people knew him, & just knew he had a crush on me. We'd spoken sporadically for work purposes, but that was all. I finally approached him & found myself having to spell out to him precisely how that can appear very threatening to a female, after enough time passes. "You may not intend for it to be so, but it feels predatory," I said, "I mean, think about it. While I may have self defense training, objectively you're a LOT bigger/stronger than I am. That crosses my mind when I go to my car at night, & no one else is around. While I personally gather that you're harmless, I wouldn't suggest you indirectly engage other women this way in the future, as I'm sure this would cross their minds, as well. It'll foster precisely the opposite response you might be hoping for. You're better off going for broke & trying to just chat with them. We're just people." After that talk, he actually seemed more confident interacting w/women, according to those who knew him better. Sometimes it helps to take the time to point out to an individual how their approach (or lack thereof) can impact others in ways they may not be readily aware of (regardless of whether or not you think they *should* be aware of it already. Sometimes *should* simply is not what *is* - & it won't kill you to try to take [reasonable] initiative in a situation).


    I'll stop here, since this has gotten quite long.


    Fe Disclaimer: I'm not trying to invalidate anyone's perspectives in the thread, btw. Just offering some situations I've encountered where women have also either behaved in a sexist way, or perpetuated sexism or ignorance in some context in my everyday life. Also pointing out how giving people the benefit of the doubt, & communicating, can facilitate growth.
    03/23 06:06:58 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:06:59 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:21:34 Nancynobullets: LEXXX *sacrifices a first born*
    03/23 06:21:53 Nancynobullets: We summon yooouuu
    03/23 06:29:07 Lexicon: I was sleeping!



    04/25 04:20:35 Patches: Don't listen to lex. She wants to birth a litter of kittens. She doesnt get to decide whats creepy

    02/16 23:49:38 ygolo: Lex is afk
    02/16 23:49:45 Cimarron: she's doing drugs with Jack

    03/05 19:27:41 Time: You can't make chat morbid. Lex does it naturally.

  10. #260
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Word, on the threatening nature of public transport for women. That is where I have had most of my negative experiences- I mentioned in my earlier post but it was TL: DR so it might have been missed- the number of erections that innocently landed on my back or butt on the NYC subway during rush hour.. I have to conclude that rush hour grinding is a hobby for a significant subset of New York's bebonered population.

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