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  1. #231
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    Since the title of the thread doesn't say that this is limited to sexism against women, I think that men should also post examples of when they have encountered sexism. A few general examples that I can think of is that men are told that certain professions aren't manly enough, such as nursing. Derogatory comments might be made about their height, weight, or physique, too. Choosing to stay at home and raise the kids is still not completely acceptable. We need to make the mindset visible from all sides.
    Absolutely. I tried to include some examples of sexism against men I've witnessed in my list (like my husband being told he should "put his foot down" about me working and requiring him to do some of the day-to-day stuff with the kids- he was made to feel unmanly for it, or that was the attempt, anyway- I don't think it worked). Sexism affects us all.

  2. #232
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    I think mine might be more a result of me not being assertive enough or putting up with too much crap when I was younger, but both of these are from early college. I don't like to talk about it because it kind of makes me feel ashamed, but oh well, here we go.

    This first one is so vivid. I was working with a group, all the rest males, on a discarded motorcycle engine. The assignment was to take it apart and document it. I never owned a car or motorcycle, so the whole experience was new to me, but it was cool to get in there and see how everything worked together. One guy, by nature of personality (he did not really have any greater knowledge than anyone else in the group) sort of took the lead. At one point, the group got stuck. Nobody could figure out how to get the pieces apart, or if they would even come apart. We tried several things.

    After observing the components and how they fit together, I started to think that maybe using a precise leveraging of force in a particular direction would cause them to pop apart. I kept saying my idea, but nobody acknowledged it at all. It was as though no sound was coming out of my mouth. Finally one of the other guys repeated my suggestion and the "leader" gave his okay. It succeeded, and as the two pieces came apart, the leader guy complimented the other one on his insight. I felt pretty invisible. Anyway some residual oil began to drip from the components all over the floor, and the leader guy turned to me and told me to go get some paper towels.

    On some level I was thinking GET YOU OWN DAMN PAPER TOWELS. But instead I went and got the paper towels. And I was shaking, mad. Mad at the group, and mad at myself for not standing up for myself.

    Weirdly, it still makes me feel burning shame to think about.

    The second one, my boyfriend in college, used to love me when I was happy but it bothered him, really bothered him, when I wasn't. I remember going through a rough time, I was lying next to him, my forehead must have been furrowed as I was thinking about something that I was sorting through or whatever, and he took his thumb and tried to smooth out the wrinkles in my face because he didn't like me looking like that. UGH. Or when I was sick with mono, so so sick my whole body hurt and everything was such a huge effort and he thought I was faking it, or at least being overly dramatic about it. Even after the doctor diagnosed me. He tried to suggest that maybe if I had a better attitude then it wouldn't seem so bad.

    I know both of those are partly my fault, and I'm glad to say I have more self-respect now, but also I think those guys all sort of had a view of what a woman's role was and expected me to fill it for them. Because I am a pleaser by nature then I tried my hardest to do it, but I guess Ive had to learn the hard way that you have to stick up for yourself if you want respect (still sometimes hard for me of course). But that doesn't really excuse the behavior on the part of the other people in the stories either.

    And I feel like I should mention that I have had so many people, men and women, in my engineering education and career who really looked at me as a person, judged me by my accomplishments and abilities and not my gender, nurtured me and encouraged me to go after the things that I want and I'm so grateful for those colleagues and mentors in a very heavily male-dominated field.
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  3. #233
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Your first story just made my stomach twist, gromit. I wish it were because it's so unusual and rare to be treated that way, but it's not.

    It reminded me (tangentially) of a couple we used to hang out with, for a short period, until it just became too uncomfortable. He was American and she was Japanese. They met when he taught English in Japan, and "had to" get married when she got pregnant. They moved to the US and we met them through another Japanese/American couple that we are still close with (old college buddy of mine and his wife whom he also met teaching English in Japan). I noticed right away that the guy in the new couple would sometimes treat his wife very disrespectfully- she tried endlessly to please him but he didn't even seem to like her very much. She even converted to Judaism and was very upfront with me that it was an attempt to get his approval.

    Anyway, when we got together with this couple, Noah's and my instinct was to hang out all together and have conversations, but the guy seemed like he was allergic to having conversations with women. He was cordial to me but after a few minutes of pleasantries would suggest that he and Noah go to his study and we could hang out with the kids or in the kitchen. This was just so foreign to the way I was used to being treated by the men I chose to be friends with- who were interested in what I had to say and didn't treat me like a walking womb/cooking robot.

    Fortunately, those more respectful interactions have made up the majority of my interactions with men, which is why I don't consider feminism to be "man hating." Most of the reasonable, thinking men I know are also quick to condemn asshole sexist behavior from their peers.

  4. #234
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  5. #235
    Warflower Nijntje's Avatar
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    Despite what anyone might think, differing viewpoints are great and I encourage them.
    Challenging ideas and spirited debate is also great.
    Do I want this thread split? No, I think it is fine the way it is.
    Do I think women can be sexist to women, yes. Or that women can be sexist to men? Also, yes.

    I was tired and cranky when I posted for the thread to "get back on track", it did nothing to further my cause or engender the thread.

    I guess I just got tired of what seemed to be one example being dissected over multiple pages.

    Terrible things happen to good people every day.
    Consequentially, I am not one of the good people.
    I am one of the terrible things.
    .



    Conclusion: Dinosaurs


  6. #236
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    [video]
    I took notes.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

    Cimarron: maybe Prpl will be your girl-bud
    prplchknz: i don't like it

    In Search Of... ... Kiwi Sketch Art ... Dream Journal ... Kyuuei's Cook book ... Kyu's Tiny House Blog ... Minimalist Challenge ... Kyu's Savings Challenge

  7. #237
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nijntje View Post
    I guess I just got tired of what seemed to be one example being dissected over multiple pages.
    You're not the only one.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

    Cimarron: maybe Prpl will be your girl-bud
    prplchknz: i don't like it

    In Search Of... ... Kiwi Sketch Art ... Dream Journal ... Kyuuei's Cook book ... Kyu's Tiny House Blog ... Minimalist Challenge ... Kyu's Savings Challenge

  8. #238
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Absolutely. I tried to include some examples of sexism against men I've witnessed in my list (like my husband being told he should "put his foot down" about me working and requiring him to do some of the day-to-day stuff with the kids- he was made to feel unmanly for it, or that was the attempt, anyway- I don't think it worked). Sexism affects us all.
    There are so few examples by men though - its almost like it doesn't happen to them, or something...

    Ok, I have an example. A male friend of mine who is emotionally and physically abused by his wife says he stays with her because if he left he'd be seen as "the bad guy" and be denied access to his children. That no one would believe him if he claimed to be a battered husband.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  9. #239
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    There are so few examples by men though - its almost like it doesn't happen to them, or something...

    Ok, I have an example. A male friend of mine who is emotionally and physically abused by his wife says he stays with her because if he left he'd be seen as "the bad guy" and be denied access to his children. That no one would believe him if he claimed to be a battered husband.
    A lot of this is my friend's story, there is always the possibility he is fabricating something, but assuming it's the truth, here it is to consider.

    This friend of mine made the terrible mistake of getting into a relationship with a lunatic that everyone told him to stay away from. Fortunately he didn't get her pregnant or end up marrying her. At any rate, at one point at her place she became enraged about the possibility of him ending the relationship and blocked his path to the door and began swinging at him with a gulf club. Because she was so wacky (borderline, perhaps) she ended up essentially coercing him into not only staying but sleeping with her that night. He said he was pacifistic through the whole thing because if he hurt her in anyway he'd be going to jail and she'd be free of charge, but there didn't seem to be anyway out except through her and her golf club.

    In effect, he felt he was rendered helpless by an unwritten rule that a woman is always the innocent victim in a domestic altercation.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  10. #240
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    I know both of those are partly my fault,
    No. It's not your fault.

    There is literally NOTHING you can do/be, that gives other people the right to abuse you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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