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  1. #211
    Warflower Nijntje's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    I don't think you're over-reacting. I'm not shaming you. Obviously I wasn't there when someone told you to smile, so it's hard for me to make a judgment call. Regardless, I support you.
    I think, if it had've just been a 'smile' i may not have been as offended, but the qualifier of "you're too pretty" is the thing i got ansy about. Which bring me back to, if i were a man to another man, would the "you're too pretty to frown" be used? I think not.

    What do i do in the instances i have highlighted? Generally i move away, look down and keep quiet. I have learned from experience that engaging does not always work out the best way. The mere fact that i feel like i have to subjugate myself and keep quiet, lest i experience a greater reprimandal force is shameful enough.


    It kind of reminds me of the sexism i encountered when i first started gaming properly.

    The year was 1998 and apparently there were 'no girls on the internet'.

    Or when people meet me being told i don't 'look' geeky. I've LARP'ed. I am currently about to embark of a Star Trek RPG (dice, gamemaster styles) with some friends.

    God i started my first guild in Diablo II in '99. I remember being excited about Myst and kicking ass in Unreal Tournament, fuck i bought the normal and collectors edition of Quake 3.

    But apparently, i don't look 'geeky' enough. I am slut shamed if i cosplay characters i like. It is not my fault most comic book females are drawn to appear sexy.


    Terrible things happen to good people every day.
    Consequentially, I am not one of the good people.
    I am one of the terrible things.
    .



    Conclusion: Dinosaurs


  2. #212
    Warflower Nijntje's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    From what I gather, the intent of this thread was to invite people (of both genders, but let's face it, there will probably be far more women) to exchange experiences of everyday sexism. Not to discuss what sexism is or to question the context of idividual experiences but simply to collect anecdotes to illustrate a point as perceived by those telling them. That can include cases of gross abuse or harassment like a fair share of what the OP mentioned, but also the little things that might not seem worth getting upset about but that are manifestations of an underlying larger issue.

    Those smaller things - like the "smile!" comment that has been discussed to death by now - are just as important or even more important to discuss imho because while there is agreement that groping someone is not ok, quite a considerable number of males here honestly doesn't seem to see what the big issue is with the small things. I am not implying bad intentions, just that they seriously, honestly don't see. That's what websites like the Everyday Sexism Project are for.

    It can be little things like that paint producer I translated for at a meeting who told me at the end of the event: "We normally give away free samples of our different spray cans to our visitors, but since you are a woman ...." So women don't use paint spray?! (I replied with a kind smile that he couldn't possibly know what I was doing in my free time)

    It's things like a Spanish friend (a grownup PhD student at the time) asking his landlady to help him saw on a button and getting mad at her (at least in restrospect) for offering to teach him how it is done rather than just shut up and do it for him.

    It can be something slightly bigger like a stranger on a train you have just had a few minutes of harmless conversation with asking if you want to fuck and then following you around after you said no and left.

    It can be gender role expectations bearing heavily on a relationship like my sister's ex who felt emasculated because she was better than him at math and logic puzzles (they both studied the same science career but she was more sucessful at it). He kept belittleling her, insinuating that she was dumber than him despite obvious evidence to the contrary.
    Also, when she injured her arm in a sports accident, he insisted that she was exaggerating and that it was probably nothing. He moaned about her being a sissy all the way to the hospital where the x-ray revealed a broken bone. That shut him up for a few minutes but then his summary of the situation was "man, that sucks for me, now we won't be able to have sex for a while". She swears he did not mean it as a joke but was completely serious about it.

    It's things like my old highschool physics teacher describing the best student in the class as "not bad for a girl".

    It's things like my (female) cousin stating after a large family gathering in beautiful historic city: "that was nice, but next time we should schedule some free time for shopping - after all, we're women!"



    It is also things like the media focussing on Angela Merkel's haircut and cloths during her first term in office. Journalists debating whether Hillary Clinton shows too much or too little emotion in certain scenarios when nobody would bother to ask that about a male politician.
    All of this. Thankyou.

    Terrible things happen to good people every day.
    Consequentially, I am not one of the good people.
    I am one of the terrible things.
    .



    Conclusion: Dinosaurs


  3. #213
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    From what I gather, the intent of this thread was to invite people (of both genders, but let's face it, there will probably be far more women) to exchange experiences of everyday sexism. Not to discuss what sexism is or to question the context of idividual experiences but simply to collect anecdotes to illustrate a point as perceived by those telling them. That can include cases of gross abuse or harassment like a fair share of what the OP mentioned, but also the little things that might not seem worth getting upset about but that are manifestations of an underlying larger issue.
    I agree with this, but perhaps the thread has been derailed beyond that point now.


    Ok, I'll add one: when I was at university we went on a group project to do a report on environmental issues. I tried to interview a farmer and he said "Get one of the guys to talk to me. Girls don't know anything." I felt a strong urge to throw something at him, especially because the 'girls' did all the work and the 'guys' in my group happened to have signed up for free credits and didn't even have any idea what the project was all about.
    4w5 sp/sx EII

  4. #214
    Warflower Nijntje's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    I agree with this, but perhaps the thread has been derailed beyond that point now.


    Ok, I'll add one: when I was at university we went on a group project to do a report on environmental issues. I tried to interview a farmer and he said "Get one of the guys to talk to me. Girls don't know anything." I felt a strong urge to throw something at him, especially because the 'girls' did all the work and the 'guys' in my group happened to have signed up for free credits and didn't even have any idea what the project was all about.
    perhaps it needs to fucking get back on track. WTH people? i have literally given you multiple examples of both my and other's experience and all anyone wants to do is debate the fucking semantics of one given example.

    This was MEANT to be somewhere where people could share their experiences, not fucking invalidate them (which is what some of you have been doing) under the guise of 'semantics' and 'interpretation'.

    Terrible things happen to good people every day.
    Consequentially, I am not one of the good people.
    I am one of the terrible things.
    .



    Conclusion: Dinosaurs


  5. #215
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nijntje View Post
    perhaps it needs to fucking get back on track. WTH people? i have literally given you multiple examples of both my and other's experience and all anyone wants to do is debate the fucking semantics of one given example.

    This was MEANT to be somewhere where people could share their experiences, not fucking invalidate them (which is what some of you have been doing) under the guise of 'semantics' and 'interpretation'.
    Maybe a mod could help split this thread and move all the discussion about whether something is sexism or not to a different thread?
    4w5 sp/sx EII

  6. #216
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    No, I don't believe you are lying, I merely take anecdotal evidence with a grain of salt,
    All evidence of this kind is anecdotal. Think about it.
    What you are actually saying is that you take women's testimony with a grain of salt.
    You choose to rely on (very likely) outdated theories by undisclosed (very likely) male sources from a couple of freshman psych classes. Not even that - you draw spurious conclusions from those sources and claim your opinion as fact. You refuse to revise your opinion, in spite of evidence that you're wrong. That seems like a pretty dogmatic approach.

    Is it your assertion that no woman would respond to a partially flirtatious, partially sympathetic comment in much the same manner as I did in my own experiences?
    I don't make assertions about ALL or NO women. That's what you do. In fact, you go one step further, you not only presume to know how women ought to respond, you also "take with a grain of salt", IOW dismiss, those who don't respond according to the "biological" programme. That's patronising. And sexist.

    If there is any doubt about whether a woman is going to "respond" as you do, and might in fact, take offence to unsolicited comments and attention, surviving as she does in an atmosphere of sexual threat, the "sympathetic" thing to do, is to not impose upon her. (Whatever you think your psych prof taught you about how grateful she *ought* to be.)
    either they fail to think their actions thru, or their anecdotal experience leads them to believe such compliments help more than they hurt.
    I see. So it's alright to rely on anecdotal evidence, as long as it supports your prejudices, or it's from men. Thanks for clearing that up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #217
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nijntje View Post
    perhaps it needs to fucking get back on track. WTH people? i have literally given you multiple examples of both my and other's experience and all anyone wants to do is debate the fucking semantics of one given example.

    This was MEANT to be somewhere where people could share their experiences, not fucking invalidate them (which is what some of you have been doing) under the guise of 'semantics' and 'interpretation'.
    What's wrong with discussing it? Would you like the thread to be split? I thought you were encouraging women to post their experiences on the everydaysexism site as a central resource?
    In fairness, you weren't specific about the purpose or parameters of this thread until now. While I agree that there's nothing more vexing than having some dude 'mansplain' to you why what you experienced wasn't what you thought you experienced and aren't you a silly girl to get offended, I, for one, see value in also discussing it so that all the people who just see a list of things X woman doesn't like but don't understand why they might be examples of sexism, have an opportunity to drill down into the issues. Otherwise it's just like: "you do this, this and this. Fucking stop". I'm not saying that's not a valid directive, I just think it's less likely to get results from people who are not as well educated in these matters as you are. All they'll do is roll their eyes and say "whining bitches".
    I also think the sexism displayed by some of the contributors to this thread is textbook enough to provide its own testimony.

    While I think that site is a great idea and an awesome resource, I don't like to dwell too much on my own personal experience. I just think it's so much bigger than me. And whatever I've been through wrt sexism pales to such an extent when compared with other women, that I feel ridiculous complaining about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #218
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    I just don't understand the knee-jerk reaction to paint this as an "us vs them" thing. Sure, you may be a man but you must have important women in your life that you love. Mother, sisters, girlfriends, wives, friends. Can you read that blog and be ok with the fact that those women in your life almost certainly have to put up with that shit on a regular basis? Did you realize it? Because that's what the women in the blog are telling us.
    Word. How can the *only* thing you find worth talking about wrt sexism, in a world where just about every woman in the public eye who talks about it gets death/rape threats, be that women are overreacting?
    It says it all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  9. #219
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    But you were so "sure"! Are you in the habit of being sure about things you know nothing about?

    Oh...wait
    Depending on the subject, absolutely. I'm sure there's life somewhere else in the universe. I don't know where it is, but I would be astounded if there wasn't. Wouldn't you? Got it? Probably not because every post of mine you read through the lens of sexism.

    I'd love to respond to other posts, but it has been made abundantly clear that dissenting viewpoints are not welcome here.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #220
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    What kind of dissenting viewpoint can you have from "this shitty stuff happened to me"? That's not a viewpoint. That's an experience.

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