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  1. #201
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I'll have to try to remember that men are entitled to tell me what to do with my face because it's for my own good, should the occasion arise.
    I'll have to remember to nurture resentment toward people for clumsily trying to be complimentary and/or nice to me.

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    I'll have to remember to nurture resentment toward people for clumsily trying to be complimentary and/or nice to me.
    Telling someone to smile isn't nice.

    Doing something nice to make them smile is nice.

  3. #203
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    How many women are "complimented" into believing that being pretty is all they are really good at?
    Is the answer to stigmatize such compliments, or to educate people on the need to compliment people on an array of individual talents and characteristics, once they are known? In your example, the people giving the interview should know enough from your resume and their questions to give other compliments, if is their intent to boost your ego or provide positive feedback (and comments on physical appearance are certainly inappropriate in a work environment, which inherently involves formality and some sort of potentially coercive leverage). If someone already knows someone else, they should know enough to diversify compliments so that what you indicated does not happen, but I think it would be an overreaction to regard physical compliments as essentially verboten except in socially designated courtship arenas.

  4. #204
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Telling someone to smile isn't nice.

    Doing something nice to make them smile is nice.
    Offering compliments for the purpose of boosting their ego is nice, if not necessarily appropriate, effective, or wise.

  5. #205
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    My first thought when I read the OP was to analyze some of Nij's choices in life in the context of her experiences with sexism and unwanted attention.

    I haven't seen Nij join any particular cause in response to events that precipitated into overt sexism or just flat out rudeness, so I'm curious how she's chosen to cope with the pattern of unsolicited male behavior toward her in the past.

    Some of the bullet points she's made may or may not indicate sexist activity, but they could reasonably be interpreted as such given that the woman in question has suffered a series of instances that could definitely be classified as sexist. Meaning: There's a good personal reason to address the topic supportively and constructively regardless of the particular nature of 1 or 2 events that transpired.

    @Nijntje, what have you done in response?

  6. #206
    Warflower Nijntje's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    My first thought when I read the OP was to analyze some of Nij's choices in life in the context of her experiences with sexism and unwanted attention.

    I haven't seen Nij join any particular cause in response to events that precipitated into overt sexism or just flat out rudeness, so I'm curious how she's chosen to cope with the pattern of unsolicited male behavior toward her in the past.

    Some of the bullet points she's made may or may not indicate sexist activity, but they could reasonably be interpreted as such given that the woman in question has suffered a series of instances that could definitely be classified as sexist. Meaning: There's a good personal reason to address the topic supportively and constructively regardless of the particular nature of 1 or 2 events that transpired.

    @Nijntje, what have you done in response?
    I am a member of the somaly mam project - http://www.somaly.org, encouraging the awareness of trafficking. I take sociological classes at university, with the aim to focus on the function of women and gender in society. I am a journalism major, if it is not my job to report on such things as they transpire in the world, then whose is it?

    Are you asking me if i solicited the responses? Or are you trying to shame me for not being an active feminist? Or are you asking what i've done in response to unwanted solicitation? I'm not trying to be difficult, i genuinely don't understand your intended outcome for the question.

    Also, im really not sure how this thread became all about me and my experiences, the website i have provided includes THOUSANDS of examples and the video shows more. I posted this with the aim of perhaps encouraging others to share their experiences. Instead, i've been told that essentially i am over-reacting to someone telling me to smile if i look down because i am 'too pretty'.

    In what instance, if you are a male, would you tell another male, "Smile, you're too pretty to look sad"?

    Would the human response be more along the lines of "hey, sorry to intrude, but you look really down, is there something i can help with?" Or would you just leave the person (male) the hell alone and let them deal with their own things?

    Terrible things happen to good people every day.
    Consequentially, I am not one of the good people.
    I am one of the terrible things.
    .



    Conclusion: Dinosaurs


  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nijntje View Post
    I am a member of the somaly mam project - http://www.somaly.org, encouraging the awareness of trafficking. I take sociological classes at university, with the aim to focus on the function of women and gender in society. I am a journalism major, if it is not my job to report on such things as they transpire in the world, then whose is it?

    Are you asking me if i solicited the responses? Or are you trying to shame me for not being an active feminist? Or are you asking what i've done in response to unwanted solicitation? I'm not trying to be difficult, i genuinely don't understand your intended outcome for the question.

    Also, im really not sure how this thread became all about me and my experiences, the website i have provided includes THOUSANDS of examples and the video shows more. I posted this with the aim of perhaps encouraging others to share their experiences. Instead, i've been told that essentially i am over-reacting to someone telling me to smile if i look down because i am 'too pretty'.

    In what instance, if you are a male, would you tell another male, "Smile, you're too pretty to look sad"?

    Would the human response be more along the lines of "hey, sorry to intrude, but you look really down, is there something i can help with?" Or would you just leave the person (male) the hell alone and let them deal with their own things?
    I don't think you're over-reacting. I'm not shaming you. Obviously I wasn't there when someone told you to smile, so it's hard for me to make a judgment call. Regardless, I support you.

  8. #208
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Say I went to a job interview, and the HR person told me she was impressed that my resume and cover letter had perfect grammar. I might accept it as a compliment. Now I'm hired, and my boss consistently tells me what good grammar I have. I move onto another department and, guess what - I have great grammar. I consider leaving the organization and go on more interviews, and every time, the one thing they point out is my good grammar. By now I should start wondering: with all my education, skills, and experience, why is my grammar the one thing consistently complimented? Doesn't the rest of it matter? Or maybe grammar is the only thing I'm really good at.
    Ahh, but don't you see that nature has intended woman to speak and write with flawless grammar? It is the main trait of the articulate sex. Men can't help it if they automatically focus on a woman's grammar. They are hardwired that way as the poor bastards can hardly put down a coherent phrase themselves (but they are awesome at graphic design and where would humanity be without that? Sitting on a tree, exchanging perfectly phrased but unillustrated content, that's where!)
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  9. #209
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    I only skimmed the thread, so this might have already been said:

    There's a nice way to compliment someone, and there's a creepy way.

    The nice way I can deal with, even if it feels a bit intrusive, like a stranger on the train who said I was pretty and gave me his phone number and then basically ran away. I thought that was rather cute, because he didn't talk down on me, or made reference to my body parts, or made rape-y eyes at me.

    The creepy way involves people whistling, making kissing sounds, or following me and trying to talk to me and insisting I give them my phone number. Also, a group of strange men is really scary if you're walking somewhere alone, even if it's in broad daylight, even if there are a few other people on the street. Even if you are a guy, if a group of strange men express interest in you, you'll freak out too. I'm a girl. I know I'm not as strong as them. I can't outrun them. Bad things can happen if I piss them off.

    Weirdly, but perhaps not so weirdly, I think it all depends on whether the 'compliment' feels threatening or not.

    There is also a question whether the compliment itself is demeaning to women. We can't deny that physical attributes play a big part in attraction in the first place. Men usually have find a woman physically attractive before they will consider her other qualities. It is not an evil thing to appreciate beauty, as long as it is not disrespectful. Keep in mind, though, that women are usually smaller, so things that may sound 'harmless' to a man may be threatening to a woman.




    ---


    Also, sexist sex jokes and "wife makes life miserable" jokes really piss me off. The fact that they are still widely tolerated is quite depressing.
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  10. #210
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    From what I gather, the intent of this thread was to invite people (of both genders, but let's face it, there will probably be far more women) to exchange experiences of everyday sexism. Not to discuss what sexism is or to question the context of idividual experiences but simply to collect anecdotes to illustrate a point as perceived by those telling them. That can include cases of gross abuse or harassment like a fair share of what the OP mentioned, but also the little things that might not seem worth getting upset about but that are manifestations of an underlying larger issue.

    Those smaller things - like the "smile!" comment that has been discussed to death by now - are just as important or even more important to discuss imho because while there is agreement that groping someone is not ok, quite a considerable number of males here honestly doesn't seem to see what the big issue is with the small things. I am not implying bad intentions, just that they seriously, honestly don't see. That's what websites like the Everyday Sexism Project are for.

    It can be little things like that paint producer I translated for at a meeting who told me at the end of the event: "We normally give away free samples of our different spray cans to our visitors, but since you are a woman ...." So women don't use paint spray?! (I replied with a kind smile that he couldn't possibly know what I was doing in my free time)

    It's things like a Spanish friend (a grownup PhD student at the time) asking his landlady to help him saw on a button and getting mad at her (at least in restrospect) for offering to teach him how it is done rather than just shut up and do it for him.

    It can be something slightly bigger like a stranger on a train you have just had a few minutes of harmless conversation with asking if you want to fuck and then following you around after you said no and left.

    It can be gender role expectations bearing heavily on a relationship like my sister's ex who felt emasculated because she was better than him at math and logic puzzles (they both studied the same science career but she was more sucessful at it). He kept belittleling her, insinuating that she was dumber than him despite obvious evidence to the contrary.
    Also, when she injured her arm in a sports accident, he insisted that she was exaggerating and that it was probably nothing. He moaned about her being a sissy all the way to the hospital where the x-ray revealed a broken bone. That shut him up for a few minutes but then his summary of the situation was "man, that sucks for me, now we won't be able to have sex for a while". She swears he did not mean it as a joke but was completely serious about it.

    It's things like my old highschool physics teacher describing the best student in the class as "not bad for a girl".

    It's things like my (female) cousin stating after a large family gathering in beautiful historic city: "that was nice, but next time we should schedule some free time for shopping - after all, we're women!"



    It is also things like the media focussing on Angela Merkel's haircut and cloths during her first term in office. Journalists debating whether Hillary Clinton shows too much or too little emotion in certain scenarios when nobody would bother to ask that about a male politician.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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