User Tag List

First 12341252 Last

Results 11 to 20 of 639

  1. #11
    Warflower Nijntje's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    CRZY
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    3,225

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I don't want to derail this thread because the overall theme is important. The groping was terrible (assault, IMO) and the sexism you experienced in school was unacceptable, but telling someone they're "too pretty to frown"? That seems over-the-top to me, unless there's some context that I'm missing. If that is also unacceptable sexist behavior, then we might as well start segregating the genders like Muslims do.
    have you watched the video? have you read the testimonies of some 25,000 women?

    there is no context missing in my examples, and believe me i could fill a fucking thread with them.

    sometimes a compliment can just be a compliment, like when i'd change my hair at work, i would get regular customers commenting on it and saying they liked the change (or you know, preferred the previous hair colour, but it was a POSITIVE experience). The difference there is they were people (although not friends) both male and female who were genuinely expressing a positive emotion at a physical change. This is different from some asshole on the street who think's it's his god given right to tell me what he thinks of me.

    Terrible things happen to good people every day.
    Consequentially, I am not one of the good people.
    I am one of the terrible things.
    .



    Conclusion: Dinosaurs


  2. #12
    Warflower Nijntje's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    CRZY
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    3,225

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    What about the statement "you're too pretty to frown" leads you to believe the speaker felt a sense of ownership? I'm imagining a passing comment as they're waiting at the bus stop. Are you imagining more than that?
    The passing comment at the bus stop denotes that i am simply fucking up their viewing pleasure because i'm not radiating sunshine

    Terrible things happen to good people every day.
    Consequentially, I am not one of the good people.
    I am one of the terrible things.
    .



    Conclusion: Dinosaurs


  3. #13
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    729 sx/sp
    Socionics
    IEE Ne
    Posts
    5,634

    Default

    It's an uncomfortable comment to hear. Emphasis on being pretty as something that should either be maintained (not tainted by a frown) or should keep one happy (reason not to frown) is a little degrading. Everyone has their own feelings and sensitivities, so I don't want to belittle that, but I don't think this is as offensive as other experiences OP shared. Nonetheless, I'd definitely feel uncomfortable if a man said that to me. It wouldn't make me feel better about myself, but weird about the connection being made between my physical appearance and my happiness. It also comes off as sort of a sick pick-up attempt. Like hey baby, you feeling sad? Let me cheer you up. Yuck. A much more genuine sentiment would be heartfelt concern for a sad-looking person and saying something like we all have those days, or something encouraging without commenting on her physical appearance.
    You hem me in -- behind and before;
    you have laid your hand upon me.
    Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
    too lofty for me to attain.

  4. #14
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    9w1
    Socionics
    INFj None
    Posts
    9,827

    Default

    Intimidation and overtones of ownership/entitlement are what make it skeevy. The assumption that we want that kind of attention from strangers in public places when we are minding our own business. The idea that someone can tell us what we may and may not do based on a stranger's feelings about the way we look is intrusive and nauseating. Our facial expressions can be commanded by others for their aesthetic gratification? If it was an isolated incident we'd probably brush it off as innocent, but the constant assumption that we exist to be sexual objects to men gets very old.

    I've lost all patience with it. My God, I'm a middle aged woman, married for over twenty years, the mother of four and have always been planish. I don't wear makeup or fix my hair or dress provocatively and I still can't be left the hell alone to do my thing.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  5. #15
    Warflower Nijntje's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    CRZY
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    3,225

    Default

    i wear no makeup and dress in jeans, t-shirts and boots. i am not what you would call 'provocative'.

    Terrible things happen to good people every day.
    Consequentially, I am not one of the good people.
    I am one of the terrible things.
    .



    Conclusion: Dinosaurs


  6. #16
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    3w4
    Posts
    6,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nicolita View Post
    It's an uncomfortable comment to hear. Emphasis on being pretty as something that should either be maintained (not tainted by a frown) or should keep one happy (reason not to frown) is a little degrading. Everyone has their own feelings and sensitivities, so I don't want to belittle that, but I don't think this is as offensive as other experiences OP shared. Nonetheless, I'd definitely feel uncomfortable if a man said that to me. It wouldn't make me feel better about myself, but weird about the connection being made between my physical appearance and my happiness. It also comes off as sort of a sick pick-up attempt. Like hey baby, you feeling sad? Let me cheer you up. Yuck. A much more genuine sentiment would be heartfelt concern for a sad-looking person and saying something like we all have those days, or something encouraging without commenting on her physical appearance.
    Well, let me explain my angle here. I see that interaction as the male "testing the waters" so to speak, to see if there could be any interest. Why is that important? Because our species evolved with males pursuing females. Males are the ones who typically have to "put themselves out there" to be either accepted or rejected. Rejection is a pretty terrible feeling, so males are always looking for ways to mitigate or eliminate it. Are there lots of d-bags out there who feel like they're entitled to women? Absolutely, but there are also many males who are just trying to minimize the potential for their own feelings to be hurt. It seems to me that, as a society, we have to be willing to accept a certain level of uncomfortableness with these interactions. As I said before, the groping is not only unacceptable, but criminal, but a comment like "you're too pretty to frown"? It may be a bad pickup line, but inherently sexist? Not unless you have a sexist view of men, that they all feel entitled to women's bodies.

    On a side note, I think eliminating rejection is actually why some guys make cat calls at women while in groups. I don't think it's about entitlement in most situations, it's a way of expressing interest without making themselves vulnerable.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #17
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    isfp
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    8,586

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    What about the statement "you're too pretty to frown" leads you to believe the speaker felt a sense of ownership? I'm imagining a passing comment as they're waiting at the bus stop. Are you imagining more than that?
    Do you see though that you are taking the most benign comment and using it as the example. There tends to be more communicated in body language than verbally in these exchanges, so I would have had to be there. There is a way that could have been completely innocent, and there is a way it could have felt very intrusive. If a grandfatherly person said it, then it could be charming.

    What can also happen is that if someone has had enough intrusive experiences, it is entirely possible to misinterpret innocuous ones. That is all the result of sexism. I guess I would ask any given man how he might feel if he said that to a woman and she just turned away. Would he feel angry like she was supposed to respond to him in a certain way even though he is a stranger? I think the response of the man who said it would reveal whether or not the intent involved any sense of entitlement or ownership.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    3w4
    Posts
    6,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nijntje View Post
    The passing comment at the bus stop denotes that i am simply fucking up their viewing pleasure because i'm not radiating sunshine
    This post shows that you lack insight into why someone might make a comment like that.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #19
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    729 sx/sp
    Socionics
    IEE Ne
    Posts
    5,634

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Well, let me explain my angle here. I see that interaction as the male "testing the waters" so to speak, to see if there could be any interest. Why is that important? Because our species evolved with males pursuing females. Males are the ones who typically have to "put themselves out there" to be either accepted or rejected. Rejection is a pretty terrible feeling, so males are always looking for ways to mitigate or eliminate it. Are there lots of d-bags out there who feel like they're entitled to women? Absolutely, but there are also many males who are just trying to minimize the potential for their own feelings to be hurt. It seems to me that, as a society, we have to be willing to accept a certain level of uncomfortableness with these interactions. As I said before, the groping is not only unacceptable, but criminal, but a comment like "you're too pretty to frown"? It may be a bad pickup line, but inherently sexist? Not unless you have a sexist view of men, that they all feel entitled to women's bodies.

    On a side note, I think eliminating rejection is actually why some guys make cat calls at women while in groups. I don't think it's about entitlement in most situations, it's a way of expressing interest without making themselves vulnerable.
    I don't think it's a sexist view of men, but maybe sensitivity because of the sexualized messages and images of women that run rampant. I see that and wonder if that's how I'm perceived. I work to keep my focus on other parts of me and of women in general, but I might assume that someone is taking that all-too-common point of view.

    I am sensitive to the fact that men feel pressure to approach women and fear rejection. I don't doubt that some perceived sexist comments or behaviors are misguided attempts at coming on to a woman. As a general rule, I prefer men to engage me in conversation and talk to me like they are trying to get to know me.
    You hem me in -- behind and before;
    you have laid your hand upon me.
    Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
    too lofty for me to attain.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    3w4
    Posts
    6,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Do you see though that you are taking the most benign comment and using it as the example. There tends to be more communicated in body language than verbally in these exchanges, so I would have had to be there. There is a way that could have been completely innocent, and there is a way it could have felt very intrusive. If a grandfatherly person said it, then it could be charming.

    What can also happen is that if someone has had enough intrusive experiences, it is entirely possible to misinterpret innocuous ones. That is all the result of sexism. I guess I would ask any given man how he might feel if he said that to a woman and she just turned away. Would he feel angry like she was supposed to respond to him in a certain way even though he is a stranger? I think the response of the man who said it would reveal whether or not the intent involved any sense of entitlement or ownership.
    I asked for more context, none was offered.

    Have you ever felt angry when you were rejected? I don't see the feeling of anger at being rejected as a problem. Most people cannot manage their feelings, but we can all manage our behavior.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

Similar Threads

  1. MBTIC Member Project! Help us out!
    By Ivy in forum Official Decrees
    Replies: 50
    Last Post: 02-13-2009, 04:40 PM
  2. [NF] NF and pygmilion projects
    By sakuraba in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 02-06-2008, 07:25 PM
  3. Prejudice, bigotry, racism, and sexism...
    By Kiddo in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 75
    Last Post: 10-26-2007, 11:37 AM
  4. School Project
    By Metamorphosis in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 10-22-2007, 07:36 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO