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  1. #181
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    I'm not going to lie. I have some tendencies that some would label as sexist. For one thing I do hold myself and other males to certain a standard. One of those standards is not acting like a goddamn asshole when women are making complaints about how they've been treated. Do you know the woman? Do you have a good understanding of the situation? Fine, feel free to disagree with their perception. Otherwise, if your not willing to try to understand or empathize then just shut the hell up. I can't see how any guy worth his grain of salt can come into such a situation and have some desperate need to have women understand their side of things or have a need to make sure the women involved have a deeper understanding of the situation that only they can provide. Is there a male side of this issue where sometimes guys are misunderstood? Sure. Is that tough on guys? Sure. You know what my solution is? Grow a fucking pair.

    /end sexist rant
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    I just don't understand the knee-jerk reaction to paint this as an "us vs them" thing. Sure, you may be a man but you must have important women in your life that you love. Mother, sisters, girlfriends, wives, friends. Can you read that blog and be ok with the fact that those women in your life almost certainly have to put up with that shit on a regular basis? Did you realize it? Because that's what the women in the blog are telling us.
    What is ironic to me is that men usually realized this kind of thing about other men before feminism.

    There is an unintended consequence to feminism, and that is a knee-jerk reactionary backlash of insecure men saying "no men are never like that" or "women are equally like that." No, women are not equally LIKE THAT. Women may equally be capable of different sorts of evil, but statistically, no, they aren't as inclined to rape or violent crime, or even to domestic violence, except for child abuse.

    There were a lot of good things about the way things used to be, I am going to say that the trade off for being an unemployed indentured servant to your father and/or husband usually garnered you a certain protection.

    On the other hand, you were also at the complete mercy of said father or husband, so if your father felt like turning you out as a prostitute at 12 because he was a drunk and he wanted the money and your mother was dead, or if your husband liked to beat you and/or rape you and/or the children...you were mostly shit out of luck.

    One of the reasons women were so vocally supportive of prohibition is because of the number of men who were alcoholics who spent the family's food money on alcohol, and/or they became abusive when drunk, because of social norms with alcohol in the 19th century.

    Feminism began because women were at the complete mercy of unethical or unstable or malicious men as well as being protected by ethical, stable, loving men.

    However, just because women now can do things like have jobs and bank accounts and houses without being married or living with their father, doesn't mean that some of the old issues do not exist.

  3. #183
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    I have some tendencies that some would label as sexist.
    It's not a personal matter. It's a political matter.

    I have joined a political group called, Men Against Sexism. And I support those who join Femen.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    The whole existence of sexual attraction is biological in nature (though the forms it takes are influenced to some extent by socialization). As for the rest, I was trying to convey the simultaneous aesthetic and physical sensations one feels when sexual attraction toward someone occurs and compare it the lack of sensation one feels without it. If you believe one is morally obliged to repress pleasurable feelings instigated by physical appearance unless one knows such feelings to be reciprocal, or be ashamed for enjoying such feelings as they occur, then so be it.

    I guess I don't consider casual and spontaneous acts of mild flirtation, especially when the intent might partially be an act of sympathy, to constitute sexual harassment in itself. At worst, its an act of insensitivity regarding what the woman may consider an unsafe environment for casual flirtation (it just occurred to me that a bus is not merely a crowded public place, but also a potential indicator of where one lives-which constitutes an insensitive, but not sexist, oversight on my part).

    Not an applicable comparison in the context of flirtation, and like I said, part of the motivation may be to give a sympathetic ego boost. Do you believe that it would be sexist for another woman to say essentially the same thing? If its simply due to the flirtatious aspect of things, well we already covered that.
    What a man might view as "sympathetic ego boost" (which frankly sounds condescending, like are you so attractive and she so insecure or unattractive she needs your pity flattery?) ...women may view as annoyance or even harassment.

    I do know a 50 year old woman who feeds on the attention of men, apparently any man, she won't leave the house without make-up and a dress blah blah blah...and as a woman in my 30s, I think that's emotionally fucking disturbed. And that kind of thing is perpetuated by this attitude, that women can and should only be valued for their appearance, that they need "sympathetic ego boosts" in the form of sexual harassment.

    I've had strange men on the street tell me I was a rude bitch because I wasn't open to their "sympathetic ego boost" which I saw more like them trying to boost their own ego, or maybe get my phone number.

    Either way, I'm very comfortable with my sexuality, and there's a time and a place for flirting, and apparently it doesn't occur to some men that that isn't everywhere 24/7 in public places.

  5. #185
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    There is an unintended consequence to feminism, and that is a knee-jerk reactionary backlash of insecure men saying "no men are never like that" or "women are equally like that."
    It's less a consequence of feminism, than a consequence of the erosion of male privilege (which, yes, can be seen as a consequence of feminism, but I think it's an important distinction to make).
    The backlash is an attempt to restore that old, comforting, patriarchal order of things, where everyone knew "their" place.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #186
    Warflower Nijntje's Avatar
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    an example of women on women sexism:

    "You'll never get a man with all those tattoos"
    "My men only like long hair, you know, you shouldn't cut it short, your boyfriend wouldn't like it"
    "She's slept with HOW many guys? Man, what a fucking slut"

    Terrible things happen to good people every day.
    Consequentially, I am not one of the good people.
    I am one of the terrible things.
    .



    Conclusion: Dinosaurs


  7. #187
    Warflower Nijntje's Avatar
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    The title blurb for the project

    The Everyday Sexism Project exists to catalogue instances of sexism experienced by women on a day to day basis. They might be serious or minor, outrageously offensive or so niggling and normalised that you don’t even feel able to protest. Say as much or as little as you like, use your real name or a pseudonym – it’s up to you. By sharing your story you’re showing the world that sexism does exist, it is faced by women everyday and it is a valid problem to discuss.

    If you prefer to e-mail me at laura@everydaysexism.com I can upload your story for you instead. Follow us on Twitter (and submit entries by tweet) at @EverydaySexism.
    entries:

    On my first day as a junior lawyer in Melbourne, I was one of 4 graduates starting that day, the other three were guys. I was asked three times that day if I was a new personal assistant (PA). None of the guys were asked this at any point.
    My mother decided to keep her own last name when she married.
    many of her male coworkers flatly refuse to use anything other than my father's last name when they email her/talk to her.
    she also gets told that keeping her last name must mean she "doesn't love her husband" or that she "must be a bad wife"
    it annoys the hell out of our whole family.

    I will never forget the two years I spent in a co-ed college while I was going to university. some of the experiences were great - others were terrifying.

    One of the worst parts of "college culture" were all the chants that college boys would sing and yell (usually on buses going to college mixer events)
    The FEAR that comes from being trapped on a bus for more than an hour with a whole crowd of young men chanting about sex (where the women are dehumanised), rape and violence, is truly horrifying. The fact that almost every single guy memorised the chants so they could be 'one of the guys' and 'participate in college life' is just awful. It was so normalised.
    Equally awful is the way that the heads of college tolerated or ignored it - despite the terrible, damaging and dangerous ideas/behaviours it encourages.

    It makes me feel sick and angry. My college experience should NOT have involved feeling threatened or unsafe.

    I rarely walk the 20 minutes from home to work in Sydney's inner west, because most days that I do I get catcalls from men in cars
    My grandfather left an equal amount of money to his four children in his will. My uncle tried to protest the will and argued he should have been granted more than my mother as he had "contributed more to the family line" by producing the first grandchild and having two sons, while my mother could "only" have girls. The law, however, is less of an ass than my uncle and he did not get any more money.
    i admitted to my male friends that i'm a feminist and they told me to get hit by a car and actually die this time (i had a mild car accident a while ago)
    Every time I go out I get catcalled.
    I have very long hair and sometimes dress in a feminine way, but when did that become a blueprint for street harassment?
    Sometimes it even happens when I'm just walking with my mum, for crying out loud. It's extremely embarrassing and I wish it would stop.
    was having a rough day and my friend's cousin asked to come over to hang out and have drinks. We have known each other since childhood and so I thought nothing of it. He got me sufficiently drunk and attempted to have sex with me. He kissed me and I was so inebriated that it was difficult to push him off. Eventually I told him that I had a migraine and that I wanted to sleep and pretty much had to force him out of my house. Even then he would not take no for an answer.
    I know it seems silly to quit a job over a stupid name I was called. But I felt I wasn't safe. I am not a slut. I am not a sexual object. The men got angry because I didn't accept the harassment

    Terrible things happen to good people every day.
    Consequentially, I am not one of the good people.
    I am one of the terrible things.
    .



    Conclusion: Dinosaurs


  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    And we're saying that it doesn't seem a bit odd to *anyone else* that literally almost every single woman equates harassment with sexism, college teachings support that theology, and yet there are still men that just say, "Nope, you're wrong. It isn't sexist to harass a woman if she's pretty. It isn't sexist to insult a woman if she isn't fulfilling her job of being pretty. Infact, I'd argue it isn't even harassment to bother a woman that doesn't wish and has shown no indications of wanting to be bothered with flirty passes and behavior."?? That doesn't seem odd to you the overwhelming number of women are saying the same thing and yet you're invalidating it because it isn't really your particular stance?

    How many years did it take to teach the people of the world that it is round, I wonder? How many people with details that didn't match up to what was considered the norm had to be swayed before it was put into teachings?

    A man who has been socially conditioned to believe he has somehow a right to domineer over women mentally or emotionally as objects of course will not see the problem, if he feels he is completely entitled in his "male perspective" to objectify women.

    From a completely natural and gut response, when I read guys posts saying things like that, basically about how men "deserve" for women to be this or that, I'm completely flabbergasted.

    Then I remember no this is what male privilege is. Some actually think they are ENTITLED to women, like they're objects or property, instead of other people.

    I certainly hope that men who feel entitled to "pretty women" also feel a responsibility to pay for sex or to support that pretty woman as their girlfriend and/or wife, because objectification is only fair if its a two way street....

  9. #189
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    Oh I also want to add that when the shoe is on the other foot, and these sorts of men are sexually harassed themselves or a woman is very persistent in her amorous attentions, and won't take no for an answer, suddenly she is "crazy" or a "psycho bitch"...yet they don't see the problem when they do it....because they have a right to do it. Cuz tey iz menz.

  10. #190
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    This seems pretty condescending to me.
    Not really; I distinctly remember textbooks in psychology and public speaking classes saying that it helps to overcome depression, boost self-confidence, etc. to a.) maintain the best possible physical appearance and b.) constantly keeping a positive mental attitude in much the same way as that Stewart Smalley skit (which is what I immediately thought of). Looking at it in the worst possible light (such as the way many of my statements seem to have been taken), this would imply that humans of both genders are generally vain, shallow, and gullible toward even their own flattery. I think of it as merely recognizing an element of a person's complex psychological processes, something that helps keep us motivated and not miserable in the face of life's difficulties and setbacks, and is equally applicable to both genders. In short, compliments, including shallow compliments on a person's physical appearance, generally make people feel better, even when they privately doubt their validity. I do recognize the potential of their having the opposite effect, much would be much along the lines I had when I first read about that weird psychological quirk of humanity.

    And in case anyone was wondering, I've never personally tried to cheer up a stranger by complimenting their looks (I am not even remotely confident enough in my social skills to attempt that), and yes I have been on the receiving end of such attempts, some apparently sincere, some which seemed to have an element of condescension-I responded to the first with a very mild ego boost accompanied by a careful reticence toward reading too much into it, I responded to the latter by appreciating the clumsy attempt for what it probably was.

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