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  1. #161
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    A word of advise for the future.

    If you have a penis and are thinking about posting in a thread like this... don't.

    Given the way the debate has been framed there is no way for us to compete, much less get any sort of real hearing.

    Start your own thread.

  2. #162
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Nice one, twist this into me feeling entitled. But no, I'm not owed an explanation. This had everything to do with how to get to the bottom of an issue, forum etiquette. We debate lots of issues here. If you're going to put something out there, you have to be willing to defend it. If Nijntje just wanted this thread to be a giant circle jerk, with no criticism, then she's probably in the wrong place. I'm sure she could find many forums on the internet where a post like hers would receive no criticism whatsoever.
    Oh right, of course. Nijntje is in the wrong place. Because, you guys were here first, right? You put your little flag in the ground an everything.

    Name one forum where she could post without criticism. Then go there and make a post, like hers, as a woman. Then report back.

    Then tell us why she has to fuck off out of her own thread, instead of you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  3. #163
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    They say we live our contradictions and we certainly do here.

    Not only are we opposed to the manners and mores of sexism, but we are followers of a doctor who abused his female patients, namely, Carl Jung.

  4. #164
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    A word of advise for the future.

    If you have a penis and are thinking about posting in a thread like this... don't.

    Given the way the debate has been framed there is no way for us to compete, much less get any sort of real hearing.

    Start your own thread.
    This is part of the problem, Disco: you see the OP in this thread as an invitation to debate, something with which you ought to be able to compete. And yes, if that's what you want to get from posting in a thread like this, I would urge you to start your own thread. But if you have any interest in engaging collaboratively rather than competing and debating someone's personal experience, this would have been (and might still be- I have hope!) a good thread for that.

  5. #165
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    If the shoe fits. You were demanding, repeatedly, for an explanation. She isn't required to give you one to make her point. And you're not really in a position to demand anything from her. So, yeah, it sounded a little entitled. If you need more information to make your point, chances are it isn't a strong one to post right away or jump to conclusions about.

    Not to mention. I'd argue that she absolutely cannot post anywhere else. And posting everyday sexism in the environment is not there to circle jerk. Even JJJ said that this thread exposed how unsafe women feel in their daily lives from these constant bombardments. That means valuable information even if you somehow came out the victor with your detail-nit-picking. If she had just gone to some feminist website with well-controlled comments, where would that get her? Versus here, with people she (at least internet-knows and trusts) actually wants to interact with? (I hope at least..)

    And I don't know if you noticed, the internet is not exactly a haven for women.
    You're right, she's not required to give an explanation, nor am I required to accept her claim without evidence. This is a forum where lots of issues are debated. What's makes this issue so special where it deserves special treatment? Nothing. Christians try to use the same strategy when talking about religion, that it shouldn't be debated because that's rude. I have a similar response for them. Nothing is sacred. Nothing.

    The internet isn't just a rough place for women, it's a rough place for everyone. But what happened here was hardly rough. No one threatened her or called her names. Someone dared to challenge one of her claims. Oh, the humanity!

    Negative. That's always the extreme people want to jump around and straight off to.
    "This girl doesn't want to date me.." "well, maybe you should change something to make yourself more attractive to women." "OH, SURE. I'm suppose to start working out 4 hours a day, drinking protein shakes, and making lots of money huh?! BECAUSE THATS THE ONLY WAY!!" It's so extreme and childish to jump to that conclusion.

    All *unwanted* interaction between the genders is harassment, and like I said earlier it is the *sense of entitlement* that people feel for putting those unwanted interactions on the other person that is sexist. The underlying motivations for the harassment link it to sexism.
    Did you really mean this? If a male boss fires a female employee, that's harassment if it was unwanted? If a female driver crashes into my car, is that harassment because she's a different gender? If an overweight woman sits next to me on the DC metro, with parts of her body spilling over into my seat, that's harassment because it's unwanted? (this last one has happened to me many times).

    You don't find it a bit sad that women are so defensive that you're worried about talking to them?

    What do you think is motivating men to jump straight to this overly flirty behavior that you clearly defined as harassment, if not a sense of entitlement, power, or sexism (both)?
    I do find it sad, but it's not something I can change, so I just opt out. All I'm missing out on is small talk with random strangers.

    Are you talking about groping? If you are, then I would agree that a sense of entitlement is probably at the heart of their behavior. But if you're talking about just words, I don't know. I've already talked about poor socialization, but that has been dismissed as an explanation. I would hesitate to claim to know the motivation behind the actions of so many men I've never met. I could speculate that some men might have a particular motivation, but to claim that all men have a particular motivation? I like Carl Sagan's philosophy: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    From a personal aspect I am working on myself through counseling to resolve all the issues that resulted from the imbalance of genders.
    The personal is political.

    So why not join a political group that is fighting the harassment, beating, enslavement, rape and the killing of women throughout the world.

    Why not join the Femen?

  7. #167
    As Long As It Takes.... Redbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    A word of advise for the future.

    If you have a penis and are thinking about posting in a thread like this... don't.

    Given the way the debate has been framed there is no way for us to compete, much less get any sort of real hearing.

    Start your own thread.
    See, I don't understand why in the blazes it's even being perceived that way. Why does it have to be a 'them' vs. 'us'?

    We're talking about people's experiences, their feelings, and giving them a space to speak of it. How is that a debate? It didn't start that way until the OP's experience was questioned. No claim was made to debate over.

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    This is part of the problem, Disco: you see the OP in this thread as a debate with which you ought to be able to compete. And yes, if that's what you want to get from posting in a thread like this, I would urge you to start your own thread. But if you have any interest in engaging collaboratively rather than competing and debating someone's personal experience, this would have been (and might still be- I have hope!) a good thread for that.
    Reading the umpteen millionth personal anecdote about how shitty dudes are doesn't really put me in the cumbaya mood.

    If you look at the OP, and several posts following it, that's all this ever was. So forgive my reticence to play along.

  9. #169
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Nice one, twist this into me feeling entitled. But no, I'm not owed an explanation. This had everything to do with how to get to the bottom of an issue, forum etiquette. We debate lots of issues here. If you're going to put something out there, you have to be willing to defend it. If Nijntje just wanted this thread to be a giant circle jerk, with no criticism, then she's probably in the wrong place. I'm sure she could find many forums on the internet where a post like hers would receive no criticism whatsoever.
    I think it is important to have ideas challenged as well, but "giant circle jerk"? Implying that women jerk-off to anecdotes about sexist boundaries being crossed?

    Go back and read the violations that women have faced. I doubt your mother raped your father. I doubt that women employers treated you like crap because you wouldn't flirt with them. I doubt very many girls stalked you with threatening poetry. Did a woman ever stalk your father causing a continual anxiety to you throughout your time in college? Have girls demanded repeatedly that you explain to them EXACTLY WHY you don't want them and your choice wasn't a good enough reason? You don't know you are privileged. You are having something on the level of a sibling rivalry here. That is not what a thread like this is about. Step away and reflect on what has happened here.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    A word of advise for the future.

    If you have a penis and are thinking about posting in a thread like this... don't.

    Given the way the debate has been framed there is no way for us to compete, much less get any sort of real hearing.

    Start your own thread.
    Post in the thread, but just don't be dismissive. Imagine someone starting a thread about racism descibing ways they had faced it and me as a caucasian coming in and saying, "no, that's not the way it is". What a terrible mistake for anyone with my color skin to post in this thread. It isn't who you are it is what you post. Post like a sexist in a thread against sexism and guess what? Suddenly you don't have the level of privilege you are accustomed to.


    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Reading the umpteen millionth personal anecdote about how shitty dudes are doesn't really put me in the cumbaya mood.

    If you look at the OP, and several posts following it, that's all this ever was. So forgive my reticence to play along.
    That's good. It isn't intended to please you and make you feel good. It is to challenge you as well. Don't accuse anyone else of not being able to take a challenge if you don't demonstrate the same willingness by taking a look and describing how you have been affected by sexism, because you have.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  10. #170
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I do find it sad, but it's not something I can change, so I just opt out. All I'm missing out on is small talk with random strangers.
    Women aren't capable of anything more stimulating than small talk? How...dismissive of you. You can't know what you're missing out on. It's in the nature of "missing out". You can speculate, but only from a position of bigotry.

    Are you talking about groping? If you are, then I would agree that a sense of entitlement is probably at the heart of their behavior. But if you're talking about just words, I don't know. I've already talked about poor socialization, but that has been dismissed as an explanation. I would hesitate to claim to know the motivation behind the actions of so many men I've never met.
    And yet, you've already done so. Why are you so confident to speculate about the cause of one behaviour but not another ? Why is it more "extraordinary" or extravagant to claim that the same phenomenon is responsible for both?

    Oh, because it's "just" words. And those never give us away, do they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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