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  1. #151
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    He doesn't have to be an evil piece of shit. How many sexist men would you classify as "evil pieces of shit". Most are merely ignorant. Many men are astonishingly ignorant about what constitutes sexism, it seems. Does that mean we keep giving them the benefit of the doubt ? "It's ok, I know you're just an inconsiderate, thoughtless asshole and not an evil piece of shit. Do carry on." Actually, come to think of it, most women do do this...
    Yeah, in the absence of clear hostile intent, I do keep giving people the benefit of the doubt. I'm flawed in that way, I guess. But I actually don't consider it a flaw. We just do things differently. I prefer to try to make a personal connection with anyone I don't consider too far gone to honestly consider what I have to say. I prefer not alienating them if I can help it, because people tend to be more receptive to learning about these things from someone with whom they have a personal connection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I guess what I'm saying is that his intent shouldn't matter as much as the overall effect of what he's doing.
    This shouldn't be about personal dynamics, Ives, it's bigger than that.
    Sorry. With people I'm on a familiar basis with, it will always be about personal dynamics, at least in part. It won't stop me from pointing out to them how I see their attitudes, but if I'm on a familiar basis with them (e.g. no previous hostile fire has been exchanged, or we've reached an understanding about said fire) I'm going to attempt to maintain that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Whereas locking threads will?
    When they descend into hostility directly related to personal dynamics, yeah, it sure does. I admit I did just forget to unlock that thread, though. I'll reopen it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    If they're only there to troll, then yes.

    Actions speak louder than philosophies. I'm sorry if you feel disrespected. That's not my intent. But just because I respect you as an individual doesn't mean I have to agree with everything you do (or fail to do) in your admin capacity.
    Fair enough. I disagree on this specific instance, though. I don't believe Lateralus was only here to troll. I think he was sincerely attempting to have a technical discussion and reach impersonal conclusions (not realizing that this was not intended to be that kind of thread).

  2. #152
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by fia
    This is something to keep in mind. When studying racism, I learned that it is defined as:
    Racism=prejudice +power. We can also apply this to sexism.
    Sexism=prejudice + power to act on that prejudice.
    Another thing to keep in mind is that those definitions are contested, highly politicized innovations, not value-neutral descriptors (i.e. they are designed to facilitate the assertion of a contested vision of social reality by co-opting a word that already possesses strong emotional resonance, not to describe a type of belief that any individual may or may not subscribe to). In other words, nobody is under any social or intellectual obligation to accept the validity of those definitions over definitions that have essentially been in place for decades.
    That's fine by me, but the distinction is an important one. What word is assigned to which level of the issue is not terribly relevant to me. There is a significant difference between a prejudicial attitude in near isolation, or as a reactionary attitude, and one imbued with social power. There is also an important similarity between prejudicial attitudes regardless of context.

    Assign whatever terms you desire, but that distinction makes an enormous difference in the effect of such an attitude.
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  3. #153
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Way to assert your own narrow experience and motivations as biological imperative while simultaneously both discounting and objectifying women. All in one little paragraph.

    It doesn't matter whether you agree or disagree. Outside of a set of contexts where interest can reasonably be assumed to be mutual, it's indistinguishable from harassment.Oh look, you did it again.

    With or without the additional information, it was sexist. Rule of thumb: would he say the same thing to a dude? No? Then there's a good chance it's sexist. And why would you choose to flirt with someone who clearly doesn't look like she's up for it? Unless you think your own desires are more important than hers.
    The whole existence of sexual attraction is biological in nature (though the forms it takes are influenced to some extent by socialization). As for the rest, I was trying to convey the simultaneous aesthetic and physical sensations one feels when sexual attraction toward someone occurs and compare it the lack of sensation one feels without it. If you believe one is morally obliged to repress pleasurable feelings instigated by physical appearance unless one knows such feelings to be reciprocal, or be ashamed for enjoying such feelings as they occur, then so be it.

    I guess I don't consider casual and spontaneous acts of mild flirtation, especially when the intent might partially be an act of sympathy, to constitute sexual harassment in itself. At worst, its an act of insensitivity regarding what the woman may consider an unsafe environment for casual flirtation (it just occurred to me that a bus is not merely a crowded public place, but also a potential indicator of where one lives-which constitutes an insensitive, but not sexist, oversight on my part).

    Not an applicable comparison in the context of flirtation, and like I said, part of the motivation may be to give a sympathetic ego boost. Do you believe that it would be sexist for another woman to say essentially the same thing? If its simply due to the flirtatious aspect of things, well we already covered that.

  4. #154
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Nice one, twist this into me feeling entitled. But no, I'm not owed an explanation. This had everything to do with how to get to the bottom of an issue, forum etiquette. We debate lots of issues here. If you're going to put something out there, you have to be willing to defend it. If Nijntje just wanted this thread to be a giant circle jerk, with no criticism, then she's probably in the wrong place. I'm sure she could find many forums on the internet where a post like hers would receive no criticism whatsoever.
    If the shoe fits. You were demanding, repeatedly, for an explanation. She isn't required to give you one to make her point. And you're not really in a position to demand anything from her. So, yeah, it sounded a little entitled. If you need more information to make your point, chances are it isn't a strong one to post right away or jump to conclusions about.

    Not to mention. I'd argue that she absolutely cannot post anywhere else. And posting everyday sexism in the environment is not there to circle jerk. Even JJJ said that this thread exposed how unsafe women feel in their daily lives from these constant bombardments. That means valuable information even if you somehow came out the victor with your detail-nit-picking. If she had just gone to some feminist website with well-controlled comments, where would that get her? Versus here, with people she (at least internet-knows and trusts) actually wants to interact with? (I hope at least..)

    And I don't know if you noticed, the internet is not exactly a haven for women.

    It's difficult to draw the line with terrorism and racism, too. So what ends up happening is the definitions get expanded so much that they lose all meaning. According to Coriolis, all interactions between the genders are sexist (but it's only sexist when guys do it because they have the power).
    Negative. That's always the extreme people want to jump around and straight off to.
    "This girl doesn't want to date me.." "well, maybe you should change something to make yourself more attractive to women." "OH, SURE. I'm suppose to start working out 4 hours a day, drinking protein shakes, and making lots of money huh?! BECAUSE THATS THE ONLY WAY!!" It's so extreme and childish to jump to that conclusion.

    All *unwanted* interaction between the genders is harassment, and like I said earlier it is the *sense of entitlement* that people feel for putting those unwanted interactions on the other person that is sexist. The underlying motivations for the harassment link it to sexism.

    I have no interest in speaking to any random stranger I run across in public, male or female. It's unlikely there would be any meaningful conversation. It would probably be pointless small talk, which is incredibly boring. And I actually avoid speaking with female strangers because of what you're talking about. "Does she think I'm only talking to her because of her looks?" So it's best to avoid those uncomfortable situations all together. The risk is too high for the meager reward. And it's not like I never speak to females. I just avoid ones I don't know unless I have a specific reason to speak to them (business related).
    You don't find it a bit sad that women are so defensive that you're worried about talking to them?

    What do you think is motivating men to jump straight to this overly flirty behavior that you clearly defined as harassment, if not a sense of entitlement, power, or sexism (both)?
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  5. #155
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    You're right, I mixed up something Coriolis said with something fia said. If you put those two ideas together, you do get a situation where all males (and only males) can be sexist, by definition, though. I hope that never happens.
    Did you think that I said that all interactions between the genders is sexist? I don't think that at all. I said that sexism affects everyone who lives in a sexist society. I didn't say it is the basis for every interaction. I didn't even say the effect was always negative. It might make some men more empathetic towards women? The effects are layered and complex, but it is important to start with how we are affected rather than "if". I don't think it is possible to completely side-step it. It's a problem to say it doesn't apply "to me". That isn't to say that every person is horrible, insensitive, or trying to exploit or be a victim. I just think that we have to look at ourselves rigorously with a willingness to admit the ways the negative aspects of society have impacted us, so that we can make progress. I didn't use a list, but I've cited many example of female sexism against females. I thought I was agreeing with you to some extent, but perhaps you are reading something very different in my posts?
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  6. #156
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    I've got to go right now, but before I do I think its worth mentioning a particular admonition that we ( and very much including myself) should keep in mind on this thread: "Make sure they said what you think they said".

  7. #157
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    I can't tell you how many times I've been relegated to the kitchen with the women by both the women and the men.
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  8. #158
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Debating the manners and mores of everyday sexism in first world countries avoids the necessity to take power.

    Power is never given, it must be taken, and it must be taken from men. But we don't even have a plan to do that.

  9. #159
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    The whole existence of sexual attraction is biological in nature (though the forms it takes are influenced to some extent by socialization).
    Everything to do with living organisms is, fundamentally, biological in nature. So what?
    My point was that your explanation reeks of "the male gaze".
    I was trying to convey the simultaneous aesthetic and physical sensations one feels when sexual attraction toward someone occurs
    I know what you were trying to convey, and found the way you chose to convey it...telling.
    If you believe one is morally obliged to repress pleasurable feelings instigated by physical appearance unless one knows such feelings to be reciprocal, or be ashamed for enjoying such feelings as they occur, then so be it.
    No. I believe one is morally obliged to repress acting on those feelings in ways that impinge on the rights or freedoms of others.

    Do you believe that it would be sexist for another woman to say essentially the same thing?
    It's fucking annoying, whoever says it. A woman (or in fact, anyone acting out of genuine concern or sympathy, as has already been pointed out) would be much more likely to say "Are you okay?" If you can't understand the many layers of judgement and bullshit implied in bus stop guy's statement, I'm not sure I can help you.
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  10. #160
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Debating the manners and mores of everyday sexism in first world countries avoids the necessity to take power.

    Power is never given, it must be taken, and it must be taken from men. But we don't even have a plan to do that.
    I thought that this is important to have a discussion, rather than escapism from it. I'm participating because I think it could make a difference. From a personal aspect I am working on myself through counseling to resolve all the issues that resulted from the imbalance of genders. This includes identifying personal needs and communicating these, so that my place in the world is secure. I think whenever someone stays on track with their life goals or what they believe is right even when confronted with sexist attitudes that they are making progress. I'm not sure what sort of plan you conceive of with "taking power away from men".
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

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