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  1. #141
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    So everyone owes you an explanation on why they feel they were discriminated against as a woman from men just because you're not convinced by their story? Here's a thought: *your* opinion doesn't matter. If you told a racism joke to a black person and they felt offended by that joke, even though your intentions were to make fun of how stupid racism is, *that doesn't matter*. You still made an offensive joke perceived as racist to that person. If you tell a pretty girl that she's too pretty to be frowning, and your intentions were really just to give a compliment on the only thing you can since you don't know her at all but wanted to be a good person by trying to cheer her up, *that doesn't matter either*. It is still a comment solely on her looks and she is still bombarded by them all the time.
    Nice one, twist this into me feeling entitled. But no, I'm not owed an explanation. This had everything to do with how to get to the bottom of an issue, forum etiquette. We debate lots of issues here. If you're going to put something out there, you have to be willing to defend it. If Nijntje just wanted this thread to be a giant circle jerk, with no criticism, then she's probably in the wrong place. I'm sure she could find many forums on the internet where a post like hers would receive no criticism whatsoever.

    It's expanding because it is difficult to draw a line in the first place. We just simply excluded the minority of those that did not agree with the definition. People play by the rules--and abuse them. It was simple at first, "You can't *not* hire someone simply because they are a woman. You cannot pay them different wages." But nothing stops you from making passive aggressive comments and disguised jokes towards her until she's forced to quit, now is there? So hostile environment has to be included to protect her while she's working there too.
    It's difficult to draw the line with terrorism and racism, too. So what ends up happening is the definitions get expanded so much that they lose all meaning. According to Coriolis, all interactions between the genders are sexist (but it's only sexist when guys do it because they have the power).

    Maybe you should. Try it out. See how terrified women are--how quickly they think you're trying to get into their pants, or assault them. See how *distrusting* all of us are to everyone that is a stranger. It is really blatant. Even confident women that aren't really afraid so much of strangers still are wary and make it clear that they're watching your every move.
    I have no interest in speaking to any random stranger I run across in public, male or female. It's unlikely there would be any meaningful conversation. It would probably be pointless small talk, which is incredibly boring. And I actually avoid speaking with female strangers because of what you're talking about. "Does she think I'm only talking to her because of her looks?" So it's best to avoid those uncomfortable situations all together. The risk is too high for the meager reward. And it's not like I never speak to females. I just avoid ones I don't know unless I have a specific reason to speak to them (business related).
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #142
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Clearly this thread wasn't intended as a venue for a technical discussion of the differences between sexism, harassment, assault or just plain social awkwardness. The personal nature of the stories shared in the op should have made that obvious.

  3. #143
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    It's difficult to draw the line with terrorism and racism, too. So what ends up happening is the definitions get expanded so much that they lose all meaning. According to Coriolis, all interactions between the genders are sexist (but it's only sexist when guys do it because they have the power).
    Not what she said at all. She specifically responded to the question of female sexism with a long list of examples of it.

  4. #144
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Like I said, I'm pretty sure it wasn't to provide a handy illustration of what Nijntje was talking about in the first place. Aside from that, I couldn't say. I don't think most people are aware of or intend to uphold sexist attitudes. That is one reason they persist, even in otherwise well-meaning people. I don't think Lateralus is some evil piece of shit plotting to subjugate women by arguing against their classification of personal experiences as sexism.
    He doesn't have to be an evil piece of shit. How many sexist men would you classify as "evil pieces of shit". Most are merely ignorant. Many men are astonishingly ignorant about what constitutes sexism, it seems. Does that mean we keep giving them the benefit of the doubt ? "It's ok, I know you're just an inconsiderate, thoughtless asshole and not an evil piece of shit. Do carry on." Actually, come to think of it, most women do do this...

    I guess what I'm saying is that his intent shouldn't matter as much as the overall effect of what he's doing.
    We've had positive exchanges before where I felt respected, and we've had other exchanges where I didn't. But to be fair, that's true of me and you as well.
    This shouldn't be about personal dynamics, Ives, it's bigger than that.

    Yes, it bothers me. That's why I've posted against it several times in this thread. I don't think stifling the conversation is going to help anyone see the other side.
    Whereas locking threads will?
    This thread has featured several women (edit: and a few men, high five to the allies), you and me included, who weren't too intimidated to take the attitude to task. I think that has to be more productive than... whatever you're suggesting we should have done. I honestly don't know. Ban people from the thread?
    If they're only there to troll, then yes.

    Again, I sincerely have no idea what you think we should have done. It's sort of maddening that this is how you speak to someone who is philosophically on your side, though.
    Actions speak louder than philosophies. I'm sorry if you feel disrespected. That's not my intent. But just because I respect you as an individual doesn't mean I have to agree with everything you do (or fail to do) in your admin capacity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  5. #145
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    Sometimes a male perspective is worth listening to. The fact that a male has disagreed with a woman in a gender related discussion doesn't make him an entitled misogynist. That's not how it works.
    And we're saying that it doesn't seem a bit odd to *anyone else* that literally almost every single woman equates harassment with sexism, college teachings support that theology, and yet there are still men that just say, "Nope, you're wrong. It isn't sexist to harass a woman if she's pretty. It isn't sexist to insult a woman if she isn't fulfilling her job of being pretty. Infact, I'd argue it isn't even harassment to bother a woman that doesn't wish and has shown no indications of wanting to be bothered with flirty passes and behavior."?? That doesn't seem odd to you the overwhelming number of women are saying the same thing and yet you're invalidating it because it isn't really your particular stance?

    How many years did it take to teach the people of the world that it is round, I wonder? How many people with details that didn't match up to what was considered the norm had to be swayed before it was put into teachings?
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
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  6. #146
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    I think the perceptions of creepy vs. charming and threatening vs. flattering can vary wildly depending on the people involved and the circumstances, but there's a big difference between flirting fail (faux pas) and sexual harassment (crime).

    Per se, the former is not a sign of misogyny tendencies - it just demonstrates social ineptitude.

    There's also a grey zone that may lead to civil suing, but that's something for another thread.

    Feminists have some very worthwhile causes, but they typically seem to believe that can speak for their gender as a whole - and that's where they get extremist.

    Sometimes a male perspective is worth listening to. The fact that a male has disagreed with a woman in a gender related discussion doesn't make him an entitled misogynist. That's not how it works.

    Also, I've noticed that Americans use the word creepy too loosely (even made a thread about it a while ago).
    I like this explanation of "creepy" on Vsauce.

    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #147
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    Sometimes a male perspective is worth listening to. The fact that a male has disagreed with a woman in a gender related discussion doesn't make him an entitled misogynist. That's not how it works.
    And we're saying that it doesn't seem a bit odd to *anyone else* that literally almost every single woman equates harassment with sexism, college teachings support that theology, and yet there are still men that just say, "Nope, you're wrong. It isn't sexist to harass a woman if she's pretty. It isn't sexist to insult a woman if she isn't fulfilling her job of being pretty. Infact, I'd argue it isn't even harassment to bother a woman that doesn't wish and has shown no indications of wanting to be bothered with flirty passes and behavior."?? That doesn't seem odd to you the overwhelming number of women are saying the same thing and yet you're invalidating it because it isn't really your particular stance?

    And as someone else said, what value comes from that ideology? Even if we separate the two and say it is mere harassment.. I'd argue that I'd rather people be quietly sexist than openly harassing me. Where does that get us to separate the concepts? Two battles to fight? Despite the fact that even some men are saying that these current harassment concepts could possibly come from long-ago sexist ideologies?

    How many years did it take to teach the people of the world that it is round, I wonder? How many people with details that didn't match up to what was considered the norm had to be swayed before it was put into teachings?
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

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    In Search Of... ... Kiwi Sketch Art ... Dream Journal ... Kyuuei's Cook book ... Kyu's Tiny House Blog ... Minimalist Challenge ... Kyu's Savings Challenge

  8. #148
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    The harassment, beating, rape and killing of women throughout the world is an expression of male power over women.

    No one gives up power willingly so power must be taken from men.

    But who wants to do that?

  9. #149
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Just for the record, threats of rape would get someone banned on the spot here, and trolling the likes of "you filthy old slut, I'll bet your vagina is disgusting" is removed and punished as soon as it's seen or reported. In case anybody was planning to do that.
    It's happened to me before (speculation about how hospitable my vagina might be), more than once. At the time I didn't report because a) I didn't want to be seen as someone who couldn't take it and b) I wasn't sure anything would be done. It's good to know it's not tolerated.

    I cited the Twitter / Facebook cases because the tide seems to be turning towards making service providers responsible for halting abuse, rather than leaving it up to the abused/the authorities. I think this is a very positive step. The "free speech" argument is steadily losing ground.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  10. #150
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Not what she said at all. She specifically responded to the question of female sexism with a long list of examples of it.
    You're right, I mixed up something Coriolis said with something fia said. If you put those two ideas together, you do get a situation where all males (and only males) can be sexist, by definition, though. I hope that never happens.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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