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  1. #131
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I'm sure Lateralus doesn't feel in the least intimidated or oppressed.

    It's pretty obvious that his purpose here was to bully Nijinte. He has given up trying to bully me. No one who sincerely finds a thread topic "silly" devotes THAT many posts to it. Clearly, he feels strongly that a woman should not be allowed to express an opinion about behaviour that makes her uncomfortable and irritated - when in his view, those feelings are unwarranted. Despite the fact that it's basically none of his fucking business. I mean, is it? Does he identify with assholes at bus stops or something? Because I can see no other reason for his defence of them.
    curious too....has he said where he's coming from? i mean why he finds value in his position?
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
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  2. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    This post shows that you lack insight into why someone might make a comment like that.
    Of course few men think "That woman's neutral expression is unacceptable; she should be radiating sunshine," but the comment is still based on the assumption that male approval carries so much weight that it should override whatever the woman is experiencing. It subtly implies that female emotions are less substantial because of how easily they can supposedly be swayed by something so superficial. Even if this isn't what the man thinks, it shows his insensitivity to what his words imply. Which is, again, the hurtful, idiotic idea that the typical woman's happiness and sense of self-worth are derived from men's appreciation of her beauty.

    I know many men don't think about these things, so it doesn't really bother me unless it's said by someone I care about. Otherwise, I'm polite, but compliments like those certainly don't win me over. (And it doesn't help that they're so cheesy and unoriginal.)

    Sorry if this has already been addressed, I haven't read through the whole thread yet.

  3. #133
    libtard SJW chickpea's Avatar
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    Funny how this thread is turning into an example of the OP.

    Salome's very right about how I really feel discouraged from posting anything about gender or racial issues on this forum. I don't feel unsafe, but it always turns to condescending bullying from somebody who has no interest in understanding where you're coming from, just in telling you how right they are.

  4. #134
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Because of biology? Looking at attractive women is pleasurable, its as simple as that. Even if one has no desire or expectation of a personal relationship with any particular woman, attractiveness in women is like the difference between looking at a beautiful forest while drinking a beer versus looking at a parking lot while drinking a glass of water (without being particularly thirsty).
    Way to assert your own narrow experience and motivations as biological imperative while simultaneously both discounting and objectifying women. All in one little paragraph.

    So, basically you think people shouldn't casually flirt with strangers, except perhaps outside of a narrow set of social contexts where the desire to find dates is understood to be a common motivation for said activity? I guess I disagree with that, at least when there is no indication of current romantic commitments.
    It doesn't matter whether you agree or disagree. Outside of a set of contexts where interest can reasonably be assumed to be mutual, it's indistinguishable from harassment.
    Also, being complimented for one's physical appearance is generally understood as an ego boost,
    Oh look, you did it again.
    From the small amount of information the OP gave regarding the first item on the list, a combination of these two factors seemed to be in play, which obviously constituted unwanted social interaction on her part, but not sexism by the man (she later provided further information that changed the context of the situation).
    With or without the additional information, it was sexist. Rule of thumb: would he say the same thing to a dude? No? Then there's a good chance it's sexist. And why would you choose to flirt with someone who clearly doesn't look like she's up for it? Unless you think your own desires are more important than hers. People routinely avoid eye contact and choose not to smile when they want to be left alone. Take a fucking hint, psycho bus stop dudes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
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  5. #135
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    How do you know what his intent is? I mean, it's hardly the first time he's pulled this kind of shit. What is his intent, in your view? Or should that even matter?
    Like I said, I'm pretty sure it wasn't to provide a handy illustration of what Nijntje was talking about in the first place. Aside from that, I couldn't say. I don't think most people are aware of or intend to uphold sexist attitudes. That is one reason they persist, even in otherwise well-meaning people. I don't think Lateralus is some evil piece of shit plotting to subjugate women by arguing against their classification of personal experiences as sexism. We've had positive exchanges before where I felt respected, and we've had other exchanges where I didn't. But to be fair, that's true of me and you as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Does it bother you that it took courage for @Nijinte to start this thread because she feared she would be attacked for being vulnerable? Does it bother you that maybe half the membership is too intimidated to post about issues that are important to them because they don't feel safe here?

    I refuse to be intimidated, but it doesn't do any good because my threads get trashed and locked and I get excluded - you let the trolls dictate what can be discussed. You give them exactly what they want. What's wrong with this picture? How can you say that you are defending free speech when half the membership is (directly or indirectly) being silenced?
    Yes, it bothers me. That's why I've posted against it several times in this thread. I don't think stifling the conversation is going to help anyone see the other side. This thread has featured several women (edit: and a few men, high five to the allies), you and me included, who weren't too intimidated to take the attitude to task. I think that has to be more productive than... whatever you're suggesting we should have done. I honestly don't know. Ban people from the thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    My intent (for the avoidance of doubt) is not to have a go at you, Ivy, but to highlight an important issue that the mods need to offer clear direction on. Instead of the whole "well yeah, but what can we do?" kind of deal we've seen thus far. It's not good enough.
    Again, I sincerely have no idea what you think we should have done. It's sort of maddening that this is how you speak to someone who is philosophically on your side, though.

  6. #136
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chana View Post
    Funny how this thread is turning into an example of the OP.



    Also, all this invocation of biology reminds me of Guillaume the Adaptionist Goat from Darwin Eats Cake:

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  7. #137
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I'm sure Lateralus doesn't feel in the least intimidated or oppressed.
    You're right, I don't feel the least bit intimidated, despite the fact that I've been seriously outnumbered in this thread. But it's not because I'm male. It's because this is the internet and I have (relatively) thick skin.

    It's pretty obvious that his purpose here was to bully Nijinte. He has given up trying to bully me. No one who sincerely finds a thread topic "silly" devotes THAT many posts to it. Clearly, he feels strongly that a woman should not be allowed to express an opinion about behaviour that makes her uncomfortable and irritated - when in his view, those feelings are unwarranted. Despite the fact that it's basically none of his fucking business. I mean, is it? Does he identify with assholes at bus stops or something? Because I can see no other reason for his defence of them.
    Bully? Hardly. I was doing something that I've done since I was a child, I was being a stickler for details. I've annoyed more people than I can count doing that in my lifetime. It's not done out of malice. Call it a compulsion if you want. I didn't want it to drag on this long, but Nijntje kept arguing instead of just supplying the additional context I requested (repeatedly).

    As for you, you're the biggest (wanna be) bully on this forum when it comes to these issues. You accuse others of bullying because you're projecting your own intent onto others.

    You need to identify with someone to defend them? I guess that explains a lot about your perspective and behavior.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #138
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Because of biology? Looking at attractive women is pleasurable, its as simple as that. Even if one has no desire or expectation of a personal relationship with any particular woman, attractiveness in women is like the difference between looking at a beautiful forest while drinking a beer versus looking at a parking lot while drinking a glass of water (without being particularly thirsty).
    I don't mean on a personal level. I mean going to far as to approach someone about the matter. I understand entirely personal judgments, opinions, and biases. Those are normal everyday functions for society. There is a difference between someone thinking "omg fat people should NOT wear bathing suits!" and going up to someone and saying "Are you sure you should have worn something like that?" You mentioned caring about what people wear.. but we're talking about people invading other women's (and men's) personal spaces and boundaries. So, when you said you cared, I assumed you were talking about caring enough to go up to someone and say something, mention something, question them, etc.

    So, basically you think people shouldn't casually flirt with strangers, except perhaps outside of a narrow set of social contexts where the desire to find dates is understood to be a common motivation for said activity?
    That's not what I meant at all. I am saying that you put yourself at risk to go outside of what *should* be socially acceptable each time you do something like flirting with a stranger. Sometimes, it is more than welcome--and there are plenty of indicators pointing to it. (I.E. at a bar, someone's looked your way, or started conversation with you, or looks a bit bored/lonely/looks like they'd rather gnaw their own arms off than continue to listen to some douche talking..) Sometimes there are no indicators, but you take a shot anyways.

    And then you have what we're really getting at--people who feel SO self-centered and entitled that they cannot imagine being shot down by a girl trying to work/shop/be/order a coffee who has shown no interest at all in them. It isn't even like someone said, "Hey, you ok? I was just making sure, you were frowning a bit so you looked a little sad.. my bad.." they straight up went straight to flirty behavior. Like I said in my earlier posts.. you're playing a game. But for women, we're so constantly bombarded that it ends up controlling a good portion of our daily lives--how we interact with others, how we treat ourselves and fellow women, how we treat men *that never had any intentions of being jerks*..

    I'm saying that yeah, when you go flirt with a random stranger that's given you no reason to flirt with them, you risk putting that person on the defensive side of things. Maybe they welcome it, maybe they don't, but the risk is there.

    Also, being complimented for one's physical appearance is generally understood as an ego boost, something a sympathetic person may do in order to cheer someone up, especially if they have no additional information to go on.
    I'm saying it is not always understood to be that way. Even though I understand many people feel that way--I do not. (To give an example: looks are so permeable in our society that when I worked SO hard to make an intricate costume meant to be bad ass, awesome, elaborate.. whatever.. All I got for it was "You look hot!". ... All of that work to get the same compliment I could have gotten if I'd bought a $20 slutty costume.) Your intentions are to compliment--but empty compliments are just as bad. It is *empty*. "You're pretty." It has no real substance. Sure, there are times and occasions that definitely call for the compliment, and it is usually well received. But this is NOT, and should not be, the default compliment towards a woman. Yet, it is.

    Even recently some preschool teachers are being told that they are not allowed to compliment little girls on 'how cute/pretty' they or their dresses are.. because they're encouraging the girls to focus more on their looks to 'impress' the teacher, versus trying hard in school. They found when they started complimenting them only on their school work, the girls took much greater strides to show that off versus the clothing they were wearing and the way they had their hair done.

    But why engage in such activities primarily to impress other women (which large numbers of women assert to be the case, and I have no reason to disbelief them)? Its probably because physical beauty (and attracting desirable mates) mattered more for women's prospects during more sexists times than talent, intelligence, or hard work, and such social competition between women is a holdover from such times-that was my intended point.
    I'm saying, if we weren't still a very sexist society, why would this remain? It is deeply rooted into our subconscious, and ignoring that pretending it is harmless and from times long ago is a bit ignorant. Afterall, it was only in 2003 that every state officially crossed out laws making interracial marriage illegal.
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  9. #139
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    I think the perceptions of creepy vs. charming and threatening vs. flattering can vary wildly depending on the people involved and the circumstances, but there's a big difference between flirting fail (faux pas) and sexual harassment (crime).

    Per se, the former is not a sign of misogyny tendencies - it just demonstrates social ineptitude.

    There's also a grey zone that may lead to civil suing, but that's something for another thread.

    Feminists have some very worthwhile causes, but they typically seem to believe that can speak for their gender as a whole - and that's where they get extremist.

    Sometimes a male perspective is worth listening to. The fact that a male has disagreed with a woman in a gender related discussion doesn't make him an entitled misogynist. That's not how it works.

    Also, I've noticed that Americans use the word creepy too loosely (even made a thread about it a while ago).
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  10. #140
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Just for the record, threats of rape would get someone banned on the spot here, and trolling the likes of "you filthy old slut, I'll bet your vagina is disgusting" is removed and punished as soon as it's seen or reported. In case anybody was planning to do that.

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