User Tag List

First 311121314152363 Last

Results 121 to 130 of 639

  1. #121
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    3,705

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Sexism is treating someone a certain way because of their gender, without good reason (e.g. men don't need pap smears). Men's casual comments to women will frequently focus on the woman's appearance, while casual comments to other men do not.
    That's about sexual attraction and flirting, though; we don't casually comment about other men's appearance because a.) we generally don't care and b.) we don't want to come across as gay. On the matter of sexism and its influence on society, more insight could probably be had by contemplating why women make casual comments on the physical appearance of other women, and why they pay attention to fashion in order to impress or compete with other women.

    I haven't read most of this thread (it seems to have snowballed rather quickly), but I have to agree with Lateralus that the first item on the OP's list is just not inherently sexist. Most of the rest range from blatant old-timey sexism (like her high-school councilor) to traumatic examples of sexual assault, neither of which is an example of 'everyday sexism' (especially not the latter). Catcalls and such would be the only items on her list that fit the thread title.

  2. #122
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    enfp
    Enneagram
    8
    Posts
    13,881

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    This is all so unscientific, anecdotes leading to stereotypes...blah.
    sex·ism
    /ˈsekˌsizəm/
    Noun
    Prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

    That means it can be stereotyping, discrimination of any sort, on the basis of sex. Harassment is coupled very tightly with that. If someone harassed indiscriminately, maybe I could see an argument here.. but usually discrimination motivates harassment.





    If you want purely scientific information, you're writing in the wrong thread. This is about what *we* feel sexism involves. If it is not the same definition as yours it doesn't discredit ours. Everyone's definition is a little different--for example, there are women who feel ALL sexist jokes are sexist in nature.. for me, jokes on culture and jokes to close friends just really don't fall into that category. People in the army have different standards on what is sexist than civilians do. It's different for everyone.

    Start a thread about harassment versus sexism if you're that focused. But really you're focusing on one tiny detail to discredit pages of worth and, really, derailing the thread despite saying those weren't really your intentions.

    If I have all the relevant information, then yes, I can be firmly planted. I put forth the caveat, over and over, that if there was more relevant context that my position might change.
    So everyone owes you an explanation on why they feel they were discriminated against as a woman from men just because you're not convinced by their story? Here's a thought: *your* opinion doesn't matter. If you told a racism joke to a black person and they felt offended by that joke, even though your intentions were to make fun of how stupid racism is, *that doesn't matter*. You still made an offensive joke perceived as racist to that person. If you tell a pretty girl that she's too pretty to be frowning, and your intentions were really just to give a compliment on the only thing you can since you don't know her at all but wanted to be a good person by trying to cheer her up, *that doesn't matter either*. It is still a comment solely on her looks and she is still bombarded by them all the time.

    A problem with our society is that concepts like sexism, racism, and even terrorism have expanded over the years. Drugs dealers are now terrorists, and soon government whistleblowers will be too (I wouldn't be surprised if Snowden was the first). Judging cultures makes you a racist. The definition of sexism is expanding, as well. It's changing from something everyone could agree upon to this area where any interaction between genders can be interpreted as sexist.
    It's expanding because it is difficult to draw a line in the first place. We just simply excluded the minority of those that did not agree with the definition. People play by the rules--and abuse them. It was simple at first, "You can't *not* hire someone simply because they are a woman. You cannot pay them different wages." But nothing stops you from making passive aggressive comments and disguised jokes towards her until she's forced to quit, now is there? So hostile environment has to be included to protect her while she's working there too.

    I am not defending a behavior I engage in. I have never approached a female stranger with conversation in person in my life.
    Maybe you should. Try it out. See how terrified women are--how quickly they think you're trying to get into their pants, or assault them. See how *distrusting* all of us are to everyone that is a stranger. It is really blatant. Even confident women that aren't really afraid so much of strangers still are wary and make it clear that they're watching your every move.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

    Cimarron: maybe Prpl will be your girl-bud
    prplchknz: i don't like it

    In Search Of... ... Kiwi Sketch Art ... Dream Journal ... Kyuuei's Cook book ... Kyu's Tiny House Blog ... Minimalist Challenge ... Kyu's Savings Challenge

  3. #123
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    enfp
    Enneagram
    8
    Posts
    13,881

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    That's about sexual attraction and flirting, though; we don't casually comment about other men's appearance because a.) we generally don't care
    Why do you care about how women look though? I mean.. the woman you are dating, or married to, sure, and fine.. but every other woman in your life? Do you really care about how they look? (and I don't mean they're dressing out of uniform at a job.. I mean generally.) And why? They aren't there to look any particular way for you.. And even if you are attracted to them, that doesn't mean that they suddenly ought to get a different set of comments simply for that.

    On the matter of sexism and its influence on society, more insight could probably be had by contemplating why women make casual comments on the physical appearance of other women, and why they pay attention to fashion in order to impress or compete with other women.
    If men were truly attracted to how a woman thinks, the philosophy field would be overflooded. If men were attracted to women who could fight, the whole army would be women. Women compete on the fields that matter for attraction--and men want pretty girls--because attraction has a lot to do with our interactions.

    Nothing says you cannot be attracted to girls. That's not sexism. Treating a girl differently just because she's a girl you're attracted to? Or commenting on the way another girl dresses because it is not the way you approve of her dressing? These are where it bridges to sexism.

    There are plenty of people who don't believe they are racist because they have a black friend, or an asian friend, so it's okay to say most black people are ignorant because they know that there are exceptions to that stereotype. That doesn't make the comment not racist just because it doesn't include everyone.

    I equate the game to alcohol drinking. Theoretically, once someone has consumed alcohol, they are no longer able to give consent.. but if we prosecuted everyone who had sex while drunk, it'd be a nightmare. So, you play the game. You know who to drink around, which girls don't care, which guys don't care, and who *not* to drink around. Sometimes you make mistakes playing the game--and you're at the mercy of whatever that person feels like doing.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

    Cimarron: maybe Prpl will be your girl-bud
    prplchknz: i don't like it

    In Search Of... ... Kiwi Sketch Art ... Dream Journal ... Kyuuei's Cook book ... Kyu's Tiny House Blog ... Minimalist Challenge ... Kyu's Savings Challenge

  4. #124
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    3,705

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Why do you care about how women look though?

    And even if you are attracted to them, that doesn't mean that they suddenly ought to get a different set of comments simply for that.

    If men were truly attracted to how a woman thinks, the philosophy field would be overflooded. If men were attracted to women who could fight, the whole army would be women. Women compete on the fields that matter for attraction--and men want pretty girls--because attraction has a lot to do with our interactions.
    Because of biology? Looking at attractive women is pleasurable, its as simple as that. Even if one has no desire or expectation of a personal relationship with any particular woman, attractiveness in women is like the difference between looking at a beautiful forest while drinking a beer versus looking at a parking lot while drinking a glass of water (without being particularly thirsty).

    So, basically you think people shouldn't casually flirt with strangers, except perhaps outside of a narrow set of social contexts where the desire to find dates is understood to be a common motivation for said activity? I guess I disagree with that, at least when there is no indication of current romantic commitments. Also, being complimented for one's physical appearance is generally understood as an ego boost, something a sympathetic person may do in order to cheer someone up, especially if they have no additional information to go on. From the small amount of information the OP gave regarding the first item on the list, a combination of these two factors seemed to be in play, which obviously constituted unwanted social interaction on her part, but not sexism by the man (she later provided further information that changed the context of the situation).

    But why engage in such activities primarily to impress other women (which large numbers of women assert to be the case, and I have no reason to disbelief them)? Its probably because physical beauty (and attracting desirable mates) mattered more for women's prospects during more sexists times than talent, intelligence, or hard work, and such social competition between women is a holdover from such times-that was my intended point.

  5. #125
    meh Salomé's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    10,540

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Lateralus, [b]I know it's not your intent/b], but the way you've picked one example out of >10 in the OP (incidentally, the one that was prefaced with "little things like") to dissect and invalidate, and all of your remarks about the other examples in her post are phrased as "those are awful, BUT" and then you go back to talking about the one you don't think is that bad (when it was acknowledged in the OP that it wasn't as bad as the others)... that is kind of exemplary of the issue here.
    How do you know what his intent is? I mean, it's hardly the first time he's pulled this kind of shit. What is his intent, in your view? Or should that even matter?

    Does it bother you that it took courage for @Nijinte to start this thread because she feared she would be attacked for being vulnerable? Does it bother you that maybe half the membership is too intimidated to post about issues that are important to them because they don't feel safe here?

    I refuse to be intimidated, but it doesn't do any good because my threads get trashed and locked and I get excluded - you let the trolls dictate what can be discussed. You give them exactly what they want. What's wrong with this picture? How can you say that you are defending free speech when half the membership is (directly or indirectly) being silenced?

    My intent (for the avoidance of doubt) is not to have a go at you, Ivy, but to highlight an important issue that the mods need to offer clear direction on. Instead of the whole "well yeah, but what can we do?" kind of deal we've seen thus far. It's not good enough.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #126
    meh Salomé's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    10,540
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #127
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    3,705

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    This is something to keep in mind. When studying racism, I learned that it is defined as:
    Racism=prejudice +power. We can also apply this to sexism.
    Sexism=prejudice + power to act on that prejudice.
    Another thing to keep in mind is that those definitions are contested, highly politicized innovations, not value-neutral descriptors (i.e. they are designed to facilitate the assertion of a contested vision of social reality by co-opting a word that already possesses strong emotional resonance, not to describe a type of belief that any individual may or may not subscribe to). In other words, nobody is under any social or intellectual obligation to accept the validity of those definitions over definitions that have essentially been in place for decades.

  8. #128
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    3,705

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I refuse to be intimidated, but it doesn't do any good because my threads get trashed and locked and I get excluded - you let the trolls dictate what can be discussed. You give them exactly what they want. What's wrong with this picture? How can you say that you are defending free speech when half the membership is (directly or indirectly) being silenced?
    The thing about intimidation is that its usually in the eye of the beholder (I'm sure Lateralus feels that many responses to his posts are attempts to intimidate him from expressing opinions that others find objectionable), and when one beholder gets to determine what does or does not constitute intimidation, oppression reigns.

    Its not as simple as that, of course, but the mods just might be trying to find a balance between constraining what is perceived as an intimidating environment by some, and enacting what would be an oppressive environment to others.

  9. #129
    meh Salomé's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    10,540

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    The thing about intimidation is that its usually in the eye of the beholder (I'm sure Lateralus feels that many responses to his posts are attempts to intimidate him from expressing opinions that others find objectionable), and when one beholder gets to determine what does or does not constitute intimidation, oppression reigns.

    Its not as simple as that, of course, but the mods just might be trying to find a balance between constraining what is perceived as an intimidating environment by some, and enacting what would be an oppressive environment to others.
    I'm sure Lateralus doesn't feel in the least intimidated or oppressed.

    It's pretty obvious that his purpose here was to bully Nijinte. He has given up trying to bully me. No one who sincerely finds a thread topic "silly" devotes THAT many posts to it. Clearly, he feels strongly that a woman should not be allowed to express an opinion about behaviour that makes her uncomfortable and irritated - when in his view, those feelings are unwarranted. Despite the fact that it's basically none of his fucking business. I mean, is it? Does he identify with assholes at bus stops or something? Because I can see no other reason for his defence of them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  10. #130
    As Long As It Takes.... Redbone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    2,879

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nijntje View Post
    I stumbled across this a while ago and had been musing about posting it, my reluctance to do so was because i felt i would be opening the very real experiences of myself and other women to ridicule. More so than when we recount them and are told to "not make such a big deal about it."

    I'm sorry, but harassment and intimidation and feeling like you are 'less than' IS a big deal. It's so entrenched that i don't think people realise they are doing it.

    The feeling that when i walk past a strange man or group of men i have to keep my eyes down and think to myself "please don't say anything, please don't say anything" isn't right.

    So, fuck it. I'm going to link the shit out of this and i'm going to share some stuff that is apparently me 'making a big deal out of nothing.'

    I know this is probably going to get trolled, and i know i'm going to be told I'm 'over-reacting' or 'being hysterical', things to make me feel like i am less than, and always will be.

    I guess this is why i still believe we need feminism.
    Anything else need to be said?

    Why is it that when something is said, all too often it's followed up with, "Maybe it wasn't really like that. Maybe it was more like this and you just didn't see it." In other words, let me correct your perspective because it's wrong and I'm going to school you on things really are.

    I can understand it in some ways because we see people talking about these things and maybe inside wonder, "Oh shit...is s/he talking about me? Did I do that? I'm _________, I fit in that group that is seen as doing this. So am I being accused of doing it, too?" So, feelings of defensiveness can be natural.

    Well, we all do it. In some way, in many ways but that's not the point. (See http://tedxtalks.ted.com/video/TEDxH...ege-Jay-Smooth) The point is to create a space where people can freely share their stories. Where they can speak about their experiences without others trying to explain those experiences away because they may have feelings of guilt, ignorance because they haven't personally experienced...whatever. If you haven't been on the receiving end, do you really have a right to say what their experience is like? It's more than possible to share what your experiences are like without invalidating that of others.

    '-ism' can come from many places. When I was younger, I was constantly told by women how I needed to dress and behave in order to "catch" a man with money. They lamented I was wasting my looks by not using them in this manner..."If I looked like you, I'd have a baby, money...enough to be set for life!" It was shocking to hear, like I should be auctioned off to the highest bidder. But they thought I was stupid for not doing this. Even my family was disgusted with me for marrying someone who was in the military. "He's a nice guy but you wasted yourself. With the way you look, you could have really married up." The human market-place...what do you want to buy/sell/bargain for today?

Similar Threads

  1. MBTIC Member Project! Help us out!
    By Ivy in forum Official Decrees
    Replies: 50
    Last Post: 02-13-2009, 04:40 PM
  2. [NF] NF and pygmilion projects
    By sakuraba in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 02-06-2008, 07:25 PM
  3. Prejudice, bigotry, racism, and sexism...
    By Kiddo in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 75
    Last Post: 10-26-2007, 11:37 AM
  4. School Project
    By Metamorphosis in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 10-22-2007, 07:36 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO