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  1. #111
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Edit: Removing double post, might as well make it useful.

    As an example of not sexual harassment sexism, several years ago we were having cable internet installed in our home. The cable guy refused to accept my instructions until my husband came home and confirmed them. I suspect if it had my husband that was home and I was away he would not have insisted on getting confirmation from me before accepting his instructions.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  2. #112
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanton Moore View Post
    I have to say, as a man, I have never felt troubled by 'sexism' from women. It's remarkable that some men on here are so hurt by rejection that they think they have to defend the sexist and potentially violent behavior of other men. Why? There is nothing natural about shouting something salacious at women you don’t know. It’s typical male adolescent behavior that many (most) men simply don’t grow out of, and our society pays a price for it.
    I remember the things my wife would tell me about commuting in NYC when we lived there. Most of her experiences are exactly the same in kind as those mentioned here by others; they only differed in some of the details. I was upset that she had to experience that sort of thing, but of course, it never happened in front of me. That alone told me as much as I needed to know about the motivations of the troglodytes in question...
    Who is defending violent behavior?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #113
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    For anyone who lacks clarity on what is or isn't appropriate behavior, this blog post is fairly helpful, IMO.
    I think what this guy is addressing isn't sexism as much as poor socialization.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #114
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I'm not sure how you define sexism. It sounds like you consider it to be sexist if a male acknowledges that a female is attractive. I've had "strange" girls tell me was I cute before. Should I have considered that to be sexist? I'm just trying to get a handle on your definition here.
    Sexism is treating someone a certain way because of their gender, without good reason (e.g. men don't need pap smears). Men's casual comments to women will frequently focus on the woman's appearance, while casual comments to other men do not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I don't want to derail this thread because the overall theme is important. The groping was terrible (assault, IMO) and the sexism you experienced in school was unacceptable, but telling someone they're "too pretty to frown"? That seems over-the-top to me, unless there's some context that I'm missing.
    Would that man have made the same comment to another man? Would a woman have made that comment to Nijntje?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Well, let me explain my angle here. I see that interaction as the male "testing the waters" so to speak, to see if there could be any interest. Why is that important? Because our species evolved with males pursuing females. Males are the ones who typically have to "put themselves out there" to be either accepted or rejected.
    First, it would help everyone to relieve men of the burden always to be the pursuer. Women are then free to approach men they feel attractive, and men can relax and be on the receiving end for a change sometimes. Second, there are much more respectful ways to test the waters. If men are so worried about rejection, women should make sure they get it when they use overtures like this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    My point with that comment is that our society is on a trajectory toward less sexism. And my statement is true. In the past, no one would have even known about the gang rape. And as much as people are sticking up for the rapists, there are many times more people who are horrified by it.
    The only reason for this trajectory is that at least some people have been trying to improve things. If we want to stay on that trajectory toward recognition of everyone's individuality, we need to keep exposing, acknowledging, and correcting the misconceptions and reflexes and disrespectful attitudes that fuel sexism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gish View Post
    Can we talk about how sexist women are?
    How many women:

    • pay for their fair share of dates?
    • drive when they are in a car with their husband/bf?
    • manage their household bills/finances (probably more here)?
    • grow up assuming they will need to be able to support themselves, and possibly a family?
    • expect men to do the heavy lifting (literally) even if they don't really need the help?
    • pretend to be dumber than they are?
    • take more time off than their partner for the birth of a child (assuming no medical issues)?
    • feel it's OK if they just want to work part-time, or stay at home, but judge men unfavorably for making the same choices?
    • don't reject men who treat them badly?
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #115
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I think what this guy is addressing isn't sexism as much as poor socialization.
    The two are not remotely mutually exclusive. If one does these things in ignorance without any ill-intent, one will correct one's behavior when one learns that the behaviors make others uncomfortable. That would indicate previous poor socialization. If one knows these things make others uncomfortable and discounts them, especially out of a sense of entitlement due to the gender of either person, then I would consider that sexism and harassment.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  6. #116
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    and both @Ivy and @Magic Poriferan have a point there that's part of the whole package... men don't tend to feel threatened by women, especially small women, and men are conditioned to think "ooh! an invitation to sex is a good thing!" while women are taught that they should obviously say no to such a thing because that's bad girl behavior

    Also, in another project where we had to judge the attitudes of different people on whether or not they would find it degrading to strip for money men were much more likely to want to take their clothes off for cash than women... it's like men are more free to openly embrace their sexuality without being judged as a slut by both men and women
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  7. #117
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Sexism is treating someone a certain way because of their gender, without good reason (e.g. men don't need pap smears). Men's casual comments to women will frequently focus on the woman's appearance, while casual comments to other men do not.
    Then every single human on the planet is a sexist. I think that definition is too broad.

    Would that man have made the same comment to another man? Would a woman have made that comment to Nijntje?
    If he was gay he might have.

    First, it would help everyone to relieve men of the burden always to be the pursuer. Women are then free to approach men they feel attractive, and men can relax and be on the receiving end for a change sometimes. Second, there are much more respectful ways to test the waters. If men are so worried about rejection, women should make sure they get it when they use overtures like this.
    This is not going to happen any time soon because of biology. Until we have artificial wombs, women will be carrying all of the offspring. Once women are relieved of that obligation, then we might be able to achieve equality.

    The only reason for this trajectory is that at least some people have been trying to improve things. If we want to stay on that trajectory toward recognition of everyone's individuality, we need to keep exposing, acknowledging, and correcting the misconceptions and reflexes and disrespectful attitudes that fuel sexism.
    We should, but let's keep it to legit criticisms.

    How many women:

    • pay for their fair share of dates?
    • drive when they are in a car with their husband/bf?
    • manage their household bills/finances (probably more here)?
    • grow up assuming they will need to be able to support themselves, and possibly a family?
    • expect men to do the heavy lifting (literally) even if they don't really need the help?
    • pretend to be dumber than they are?
    • take more time off than their partner for the birth of a child (assuming no medical issues)?
    • feel it's OK if they just want to work part-time, or stay at home, but judge men unfavorably for making the same choices?
    • don't reject men who treat them badly?
    I've done my part. I don't open doors for women and I do more housework than my wife. The idea of a stay-at-home father does not sit well with her even though she'll make more than enough money to support our family, financially (she's a doctor, I'm just an engineer).
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #118
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    The two are not remotely mutually exclusive. If one does these things in ignorance without any ill-intent, one will correct one's behavior when one learns that the behaviors make others uncomfortable. That would indicate previous poor socialization. If one knows these things make others uncomfortable and discounts them, especially out of a sense of entitlement due to the gender of either person, then I would consider that sexism and harassment.
    Nope, they're not exclusive, but I wonder what other blindspots they might have due to poor socialization. If I could express this as a Venn diagram, it would be two circles, one representing sexism and the other poor socialization, with part of them overlapping.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #119
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    This thread isn't a contest at all.

    That's one misleading title you got there.

  10. #120
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Nope, they're not exclusive, but I wonder what other blindspots they might have due to poor socialization. If I could express this as a Venn diagram, it would be two circles, one representing sexism and the other poor socialization, with part of them overlapping.
    I think that the socialization that makes these things seem acceptable to the poorly socialized is a result of their living in a sexist society. And honestly a lot of those behaviors are not exactly rare, even among otherwise not terrible people. It permeates the environment.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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