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  1. #101
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I don't know about you, but I find that crap scary, not charming.
    Well, I have to preface that being a heterosexual male undoubtedly added another layer of discomfort for me, but I can say I found those situations both threatening and embarrassing.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  2. #102
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    In college I took a class on the sociology of gender roles in modern society... I chose that class for my gender studies class because I wanted to look at both sides of the issue as opposed to just one. The teacher enjoyed taking an interactive approach with the class and for extra credit, or the occasional project grade, throughout the semester we could do an experiment on gender roles or their inversion and report the results to the class.

    I always found those to be interesting, like the rugby player who spent a week with shaved legs, mascara and nail polish or the petite blond who dressed like a basketball player to go out to the bars in the evening.

    My friends and I had been discussing how obnoxious guys can be with catcalls and pickup lines, so I once spent a weekend drunk and as sexist as I could be towards men, with a couple of friends providing backup and observation. I'd yell things out car windows at men walking down the street or make comments like "smile, you'll look more handsome that way!" or "Damn, what's a girl got to do to get into those pants?" and you know the funny thing about it? Most of them hit on me right back instead of getting offended. Now, I know that I am only about 5'2" and at the time weighed in at somewhere around 118 lbs... therefore not really a threat, but I was kind of mystified as to how the men seemed mostly to consider this acceptable behavior even when aimed at them...

    Gotta wonder about that...
    Not sure I find it all that mystifying- I think you probably hit it with the "I'm only 5'2" and 118" observation. Most men don't go through life knowing that if a woman wants to have her way with him, she would most likely be able to physically overpower him and do so whether he wants to or not. It might be true in some cases but from what I've gathered from observing and talking to men, concern about that is not something that takes up significant headspace on a daily basis. So they can either find it funny or be interested in taking her up on it, or laugh it off if they don't find her attractive (I doubt they'd have been hitting on you back if you'd been 218 instead of 118), without all the baggage related to self-protection clouding things.

  3. #103
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    I think the closest environment I could imagine to simulate for men what women experience is prison. Being told you're pretty by some big dude on the street would more likely embarrass you than anything else. Being told you're pretty on your first day in prison by some big dude would scare the shit out of you.

  4. #104
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Over the phone, one of my good friends in Vegas told me that on new years eve some years ago he was at some Casino I think it was the Excalibur I dont remember which one anyways he told me that some woman had grabbed his grotch in public while walking out of the casino...he me this told in a rather neutral tone, Im not sure if he enjoyed though I dont think he did. It seems to me that since it was New Years, the woman was probably drunk. Anyways Im not sure how Id react either but it doesnt seem particlularly pleasant, and that despite the fact I am straight.

    Now for some reason I imagined the woman was older though Im not quiet sure he specified this. This is just how my imagination filled in the blanks, which our imaginations tend to do when we have blanks to fill in a story. It seems rather vulgar to grab a guy's crotch like that, espcially since it seems there was some form of entitlement involved. But was there? I dont know enough about what happened let alone what went on in this woman's mind but I think she knew she was doing something wrong despite being drunk. As you can tell, there are alot of blanks to fill; was this an attitude of sexism("I can get away with it cuz Im a woman" from an older woman to a younger man? I cant answer that. I dont know if it was sexist. But I do know a line was crossed. The same is true for all cases of sexual harassment; if it crosses a line, its wrong. But to say that its motivated by sexism or by this or that implies being inside another person's skull, and thats not possible.

    Not sure where Im going with this, I agree that sexual harassment on the street happens more to women than to men(much more) which is why I had to dig for this example rather than look at my daily trip to the grovery store. I just wanted to point out that I feel that if a line has been crossed its wrong, regardless of which gender its done against, it seems to happen much more to women though. I also wanted to point we cant really infer about sexual harssment being tantamount to sexism.

  5. #105
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    For anyone who lacks clarity on what is or isn't appropriate behavior, this blog post is fairly helpful, IMO.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  6. #106
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    For anyone who lacks clarity on what is or isn't appropriate behavior, this blog post is fairly helpful, IMO.
    You cant be serious. You realize that using terms such as "assbag "creep" and "geekdom" is itself innapropriate?

    Edit: The blog is probably satire.

  7. #107
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    In college I took a class on the sociology of gender roles in modern society... I chose that class for my gender studies class because I wanted to look at both sides of the issue as opposed to just one. The teacher enjoyed taking an interactive approach with the class and for extra credit, or the occasional project grade, throughout the semester we could do an experiment on gender roles or their inversion and report the results to the class.

    I always found those to be interesting, like the rugby player who spent a week with shaved legs, mascara and nail polish or the petite blond who dressed like a basketball player to go out to the bars in the evening.

    My friends and I had been discussing how obnoxious guys can be with catcalls and pickup lines, so I once spent a weekend drunk and as sexist as I could be towards men, with a couple of friends providing backup and observation. I'd yell things out car windows at men walking down the street or make comments like "smile, you'll look more handsome that way!" or "Damn, what's a girl got to do to get into those pants?" and you know the funny thing about it? Most of them hit on me right back instead of getting offended. Now, I know that I am only about 5'2" and at the time weighed in at somewhere around 118 lbs... therefore not really a threat, but I was kind of mystified as to how the men seemed mostly to consider this acceptable behavior even when aimed at them...

    Gotta wonder about that...
    Based on how men are conditioned in our society, there's not much to wonder about. There are at least two major factors that make those mens' response to you unsurprising.

    1: Men are taught that they have to shed blood, sweat, and tears to get sex. Women are the gatekeepers to all the sex in the world, and a wide assortment of passwords and feats are necessary to get just one of them to open the gate. A woman being so boldly, offensively sexually aggressive would be seen as a lucky break before anything else. Finally, a chance to have some sex that's dependable and involves no hard labor. Of course most everyone wants to have a sex life, but this is of added importance because

    2: Men are taught they have a scorecard based on their sexual history. How many women you've had sex with, how hot or popular they were, how far you went with them, and how young you became sexually active, are all factors in the score that essentially indicate your market value as a so-called man.

    Put the two together, and you have a bunch of men who feel that getting sex is a huge chore but one that is desperately necessary for their self-esteem and perception of success in life. You offered those men a painless (at least beforehand) and apparently guaranteed way to satisfy that a little bit. And you're hot enough to add a nice bonus to that score, by the way.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  8. #108
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    You cant be serious. You realize that using terms such as "assbag "creep" and "geekdom" is itself innapropriate?
    The first two are insulting, no doubt. Geekdom isn't necessarily in the context of those who self-identify as geeks as many of us do.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  9. #109
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    The first two are insulting, no doubt. Geekdom isn't necessarily in the context of those who self-identify as geeks as many of us do.
    Lol, sure, I prefer to call myself a "nerd", but w/e.

    Not sure why you think that blog is a good source of info, and no, I didnt bother to read it in detail but as its probably satire whats the point?

    Besides to stay on topic, I think most people know what is and isnt approriate behavior. Like when walking down the street, you dont yell at people, dont physically interact and if you do inetract it is with their consent, politely, not forcefully. I think that for most people its common sense, which doesnt mean it is always followed.

  10. #110
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    Lol, sure, I prefer to call myself a "nerd", but w/e.

    Not sure why you think that blog is a good source of info, and no, I didnt bother to read it in detail but as its probably satire whats the point?
    It's not satire. John Scalzi has a policy that he will not attend or appear at any convention or similar event in which there is not an effective policy to address sexual harassment in place, including an address at the beginning of the event defining what is and is not sexual harassment and outlining channels for addressing harassment when it happens.

    Edit: If this stuff (which you haven't read) is common sense and everybody knows it then they are doing it on purpose and not just some socially awkward bumblers who deserve patience and understanding.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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