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  1. #91
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    A sexist society...when I read that phrase, there's something I don't like about it. It's probably because it ignores trajectory and that men are pretty much always blamed for sexism (patriarchy). I've personally done nothing to subjugate women, but I have a penis, therefore I'm guilty of something. In the spectrum of all societies, I'd say the US is doing better than most and it's getting better with each generation.
    It's the same as the issue that in a racist society everyone is affected by racism. I'll have to spend some time thinking about your concern. It feels a bit like a concern about dismissal? Statistically there is more abuse of men towards women. A sexist society means that every woman has been impacted by sexism and the types of impact are incredibly complex. I've wondered how mothers feel towards their infant sons in cultures of extreme sexism that go to the point of dehumanizing women. Do they ever resent their infant for being a boy? Do they communicate this in unconscious ways which makes the men hate women all the more? I know a few men who have been emotionally abused by their wives, and I personally don't dismiss any experience. I also described my own struggle with sexism. There are women who are sexist against women - who criticize each other. I was criticized by female family members for going to graduate school, and some women are the first to dismiss issues of molestation and rape. Everyone, both genders, are influenced by sexism in a sexist society. The question isn't "if", but "how"

    This is something to keep in mind. When studying racism, I learned that it is defined as:
    Racism=prejudice +power. We can also apply this to sexism.
    Sexism=prejudice + power to act on that prejudice.

    You will encounter women who have faced sexism and who misinterpret your intentions. Rather than dismissing their experience, it is more effective to prove them wrong through demonstration. It is important to feel at peace inside about those aspects of sexism we reject, but to also be honest and raw enough to admit where we are blind or dismissive.

    [Edit] @Lateralus, I think I agree with you that it's a problem to focus on minutiae when there are bigger issues with sexism, and I don't think that women see every incident as equal. If a stranger made the comment to me that I'm too pretty to look sad, I could ignore it and feel uncomfortable, but I could also be aware of it as having some element of a positive motive.mMy bigger concern has to do with the reaction if I don't engage the stranger. If he were to walk away and call me a bitch then it would be threatening. I think it is good to note the minutiae, but thatnisn't the core concern that women have. A random comment that feels a bit sexist, but also like there was some good intention is not the central aspect of my own concern as a woman. My core concern is how sexism has influenced my career, my relationships, and my own assumptions and sense of self. The minutiae is also a problem especially in environments where it is repetitive, but I think women in general have a sense that there are different levels of sexism.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
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    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  2. #92
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    The US military comments that any act, verbal or non-verbal, that creates an environment of discomfort for the opposite sex, and any unwanted advances, comments on someone else's body, etc. create a hostile environment area of sexual harassment.

    What these women are defining as sexist is not one single act from an individual. It is the overwhelming amount of cases compiled towards every woman. Putting someone's looks as number 1 on a pedestal is dehumanizing. Pointing out the way someone looks constantly is dehumanizing. It is something someone sees as innocent enough, but the mentality behind it is deeply rooted in sexism--that women should be pretty, and that they should be smiling and allowing men to touch them and taking compliments from them and complying with those compliments.

    We do NOT know if one particular guy complimented us and we simply didn't like the compliment (like telling a guy he's skinny when he's been trying gain weight.. uncomfortable, definitely, but not sexist) but when women deal with this issue over a course of a lifetime, constantly getting backhanded compliments or straight up ANGER that that compliment wasn't taken as such instead of apologies, and how our looks are ALWAYS the thing be complimented on.. this is what piles up and accumulates into the sexism manifestation. It is not the individual compliment.. but the majority put together and the motivations behind it.
    This is all so unscientific, anecdotes leading to stereotypes...blah.

    If you cannot see it, I am sorry, but it is not something that I can explain further than that. But if so many women are saying it is sexist and not just merely misguided compliments, can you really still be so firmly planted in resisting the issue? Is it because you use compliments like that and dislike the fact that maybe all of these women you've been saying it to actually do not appreciate it? (that is not accusatory, but a genuine question.) I mean, they are the ones dealing with it afterall. Even if you truly feel NONE of these were rooted in male entitlement and dehumanizing subconsciousness, the fact that so many men are saying it to so many women and it is continuously voiced that it is uncomfortable and men are saying "so what it isnt sexist" isn't grounds for sexism? Is sexual harassment completely outside of sexism? I do not think it is. I think the two are very closely linked.
    If I have all the relevant information, then yes, I can be firmly planted. I put forth the caveat, over and over, that if there was more relevant context that my position might change.

    A problem with our society is that concepts like sexism, racism, and even terrorism have expanded over the years. Drugs dealers are now terrorists, and soon government whistleblowers will be too (I wouldn't be surprised if Snowden was the first). Judging cultures makes you a racist. The definition of sexism is expanding, as well. It's changing from something everyone could agree upon to this area where any interaction between genders can be interpreted as sexist.

    I am not defending a behavior I engage in. I have never approached a female stranger with conversation in person in my life.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #93
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    I think the thing that struck me the most about the blog is that there is just no "safe" demographic for women when it comes to guys. I already sort of knew that, but reading the stories spells it out horribly. The men could be young or old, trusted or a stranger, alone or in a group, well-to-do or poor, in a public place or not, already in a relationship or single. The woman could be signaling some kind of interest or not, dressed appealingly or not, with friends or alone, in a relationship or single, drunk or sober, young or old, engaging or retreating. And in almost all these stories the woman is either blamed in some way or the guy is excused on the grounds of being a guy.

    Small wonder then, as @Ivy said, women spend so much time walking around in "don't get raped mode".

  4. #94
    morose bourgeoisie
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    I have to say, as a man, I have never felt troubled by 'sexism' from women. It's remarkable that some men on here are so hurt by rejection that they think they have to defend the sexist and potentially violent behavior of other men. Why? There is nothing natural about shouting something salacious at women you don’t know. It’s typical male adolescent behavior that many (most) men simply don’t grow out of, and our society pays a price for it.
    I remember the things my wife would tell me about commuting in NYC when we lived there. Most of her experiences are exactly the same in kind as those mentioned here by others; they only differed in some of the details. I was upset that she had to experience that sort of thing, but of course, it never happened in front of me. That alone told me as much as I needed to know about the motivations of the troglodytes in question...

  5. #95
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    I think a lot of these actions could in and of themselves be called forms of harassment without inherent properties of sexism. That is to say, just because it is a man harassing a woman, does not make it an act sexism.

    However, I would posit that such treatment happens to women from men more frequently than the other way around, and that women are given less room to defend themselves from such treatment. That would be sexist, and I think that is what creates the undertone of sexism in these interactions.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  6. #96
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    In college I took a class on the sociology of gender roles in modern society... I chose that class for my gender studies class because I wanted to look at both sides of the issue as opposed to just one. The teacher enjoyed taking an interactive approach with the class and for extra credit, or the occasional project grade, throughout the semester we could do an experiment on gender roles or their inversion and report the results to the class.

    I always found those to be interesting, like the rugby player who spent a week with shaved legs, mascara and nail polish or the petite blond who dressed like a basketball player to go out to the bars in the evening.

    My friends and I had been discussing how obnoxious guys can be with catcalls and pickup lines, so I once spent a weekend drunk and as sexist as I could be towards men, with a couple of friends providing backup and observation. I'd yell things out car windows at men walking down the street or make comments like "smile, you'll look more handsome that way!" or "Damn, what's a girl got to do to get into those pants?" and you know the funny thing about it? Most of them hit on me right back instead of getting offended. Now, I know that I am only about 5'2" and at the time weighed in at somewhere around 118 lbs... therefore not really a threat, but I was kind of mystified as to how the men seemed mostly to consider this acceptable behavior even when aimed at them...

    Gotta wonder about that...
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  7. #97
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nijntje View Post
    i wear no makeup and dress in jeans, t-shirts and boots. i am not what you would call 'provocative'.
    Yep. You don't have to be. All you have to do is appear to have a vagina somewhere upon your person.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  8. #98
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    For men that can't understand, imagine a large man, someone, say at least sixty pounds heavier and several inches than you and with much more muscle mass saying or doing these things to you in a way that indicated a certain level of suggestion and acting as though you had no right to recoil in any way.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  9. #99
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    For men that can't understand, imagine a large man, someone, say at least sixty pounds heavier and several inches than you and with much more muscle mass saying or doing these things to you in a way that indicated a certain level of suggestion and acting as though you had no right to recoil in any way.
    I actually don't have to resort to imagination on this.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  10. #100
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I actually don't have to resort to imagination on this.
    I don't know about you, but I find that crap scary, not charming.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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