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  • have changed allegiances

    12 33.33%
  • have not

    15 41.67%
  • am not American

    9 25.00%
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  1. #91
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    No its not, Libertarianism is entirely a rational phylosophy. Sure its got some emotional elements to it but its a self sufficient logical system. Ti might look like rationalization to you, a Te dom though.
    I dont know what the whole Te, Ti, Toe thing is.

    Anyway, nope, its not a rational system, you dont even have to read Marx or any of the like minded critiques of classical economics, which mutated into (fiscal/free market/capitalist) libertarianism, to know that because it'd been amply critiqued from all directions before Marx took up the baton with the suggestion that socialism and an end to class struggle could be the way out.

    Bottle necks, boom and bust, diminishing returns, all those economic contradictions had been examined at length, mainly by english political economists, before Marx integrated it into his system (english classical economics + French socialism + German Philosophy/Hegelianism = Marxism). Its why conservatives in the romantic movement described political economy as "the dismal science" because every economist was suggesting that, frankly, "we're all doomed".

    Although, since economics is now a useful ideology for the ruling class, and their sympathisers in other classes, no one talks about that. Instead they choose to discuss neo-Malthusianism, ie if there were only less people, or gold standards or the internal sabotage wrought by bankers (if they even discuss that) other balls which might forestall the whole contradictions bringing about a catastrophe. Its rationalising rather than rational.

    The whole appeal of libertarianism, to the economically ignorant, is absolutely feeling based, its packed tightly with weapons grade emoting. I can understand it though, its a hell of a fantasy, I do the lottery myself, getting rich and not having to deal with bosses bullshit is something I dream about sometimes too, I dont depend on it though.

  2. #92
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    "Death Spiral" effect? While I *think* I know what you are referring to, based on how insurance has to work, can you explain just so I don't misinterpret?
    I'm talking about the adverse selection problem, Megan McArdle does a good job summing up how the website difficulties make the scenario much more likely: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-1...h-spiral-.html

    Here's an excerpt:

    "Time to panic? No. But it’s time to prepare to panic. It sounds like the earliest anyone is projecting fixes is sometime in the middle of November. That’s the time when it absolutely has to work -- and if it doesn’t, we should panic. Maybe not “Get in the shelter, Homer!” panic, but I’d definitely think about rebalancing the 401(k) and maybe voting in some politicians who will treat this with the gravity it deserves, rather than giving Rose Garden speeches saying that everything’s basically A-OK if you don’t look at the parts that don’t work! Because make no mistake: If this piece doesn’t work, then most of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act doesn’t work.


    Am I exaggerating? I know it sounds apocalyptic, but really, I’m not. As Yuval Levin has pointed out, what we’re experiencing now is the worst-case scenario for the insurance markets: It is not impossible to buy insurance, but merely very difficult. If it were impossible, then we could all just agree to move to Plan B. And if it were as easy as everyone expected, well, we’d see if the whole thing worked. But what we have now is a situation where only the extremely persistent can successfully complete an application. And who is likely to be extremely persistent?

    1.Very sick people.

    2.People between 55 and 65, the age band at which insurance is quite expensive. (I was surprised to find out that turning 40 doesn’t increase your premiums that much; the big boosts are in the 50s and 60s.)

    3.Very poor people, who will be shunted to Medicaid (if their state has expanded it) or will probably go without insurance.


    Insurance that is only sold to these groups is going to be very, very expensive. Not the first year -- President Barack Obama was in the Rose Garden just this morning, touting the fantastic cost savings available to the old and sick people whom Obamacare was already helping. But if those are the only people who sign up, insurers will lose a bunch of money on these policies. And then next year, they’ll ask for a lot more money.


    What happens next -- as we’ve seen in states such as New York that have guaranteed issue, no ability to price to the customer’s health, and a generous mandated-benefits package -- is that when the price increases hit, some of those who did buy insurance the first year reluctantly decide to drop it. Usually, those are the healthiest people. Which means that the average cost of treatment for the people remaining in the pool rises, because the average person in that pool is now sicker. So premiums go up again . . . until it’s so expensive to buy insurance that almost no one does."

  3. #93
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    I'd probably identify as a liberal, although where I'm from (Boston) I'm probably moderate. Voted mostly democrat in the past, sometimes third party as well.

    Now I don't really have faith in any of them, esp congress.
    I identify as revolutionary socialist, I believe in small government, ending the litigatious society etc. and a workers controlled economy, with some sort of basic income/citizens stipend like geo-libertarians favour to remove all obligation upon firms in the economy to provide work, whether there be socialism (as I understand it) or not I think jobless growth and downsizing are trends which are not going to go into reverse, pretty much ever, excluding pandemics, limited nuclear war or some kind of cataclysm which would spell the end of globalisation.

    So far as identifying that way I think that culturally changes have taken place which are undermining capitalism, socialism or any sort of ism and threatening much more basic and fundamental social institutions, I also think there's shit all government can do about that, it can make it worse, it can not make it better or reverse it. Politics isnt going to influence that.

    All that said when I do vote, and I vote religiously, I mean really, I think of the blood of the martyrs who fought and died so I can cast a vote at all and how I wouldnt want to betray their sacrifice (and some of them sacrificed more than their own lives, and somewhere in the world there is always someone doing the same as we all live and breath) so even if its about going out and protest voting, casting a vote against someone or something, I'll do that.

    I knew someone who used to go and spoil their ballot, writing "world socialism" or something on it in crayon (they were affilitated to a radical party which had an almost millenial belief in the advent of socialism through an axil age style change in human consciousness and a world resembling William Morris' pastoral, rural paradise in News From Nowhere, his utopian novel) and I'd never do that.

  4. #94
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    I'm further to the left; I've voted for people on right right locally, but not for a federal election. Honestly, if a local candidate doesn't understand the potential values of being a centrist, then I completely disregard them.

  5. #95
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    I'm talking about the adverse selection problem...
    Yes, I agree on the general principle of it. They need to get a lot of younger, healthier people to apply, but a web site with many issues and/or not designed to properly interact with that demographic is going to limit enrollment, and the system has to be able to maintain inflow of healthy insurance purchasers or it's going to run into the ground.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #96
    Don't pet me. JAVO's Avatar
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    Powerful the Dark Side is.

  7. #97
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    "Time to panic? No. But it’s time to prepare to panic. It sounds like the earliest anyone is projecting fixes is sometime in the middle of November. That’s the time when it absolutely has to work -- and if it doesn’t, we should panic. Maybe not “Get in the shelter, Homer!” panic, but I’d definitely think about rebalancing the 401(k) and maybe voting in some politicians who will treat this with the gravity it deserves, rather than giving Rose Garden speeches saying that everything’s basically A-OK if you don’t look at the parts that don’t work! Because make no mistake: If this piece doesn’t work, then most of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act doesn’t work.
    Yeah, if it's not working by the end of November we have issues. So, that's a 2 week window between earliest projection to "this is becoming a serious issue" date. Which gives them 4-8 weeks (overall) to fix a program that has several times more lines of code than Windows operating systems. (Although to be fair, that 500 million lines of code number was probably a bloated BS number that some slacker programmer / program manager used to look good to a clueless upper management. See that crap all the time in government contracting.)

    Still... they are going to have to be very smart to get something functional by the 1st. It's high profile enough that it might happen, but it's definitely not the standard for govt work.

    Am I exaggerating? I know it sounds apocalyptic, but really, I’m not. As Yuval Levin has pointed out, what we’re experiencing now is the worst-case scenario for the insurance markets: It is not impossible to buy insurance, but merely very difficult. If it were impossible, then we could all just agree to move to Plan B. And if it were as easy as everyone expected, well, we’d see if the whole thing worked. But what we have now is a situation where only the extremely persistent can successfully complete an application. And who is likely to be extremely persistent?

    [...]
    But if those are the only people who sign up, insurers will lose a bunch of money on these policies. And then next year, they’ll ask for a lot more money.
    Okay, I'm with ya now on the whole "death spiral" part of it. It being "very difficult" to sign up, in particular, is definitely bad news, and is actually a bit worse than I realized. Because of my biases, I'll at least wait until the end of the month to see where things stand, though. I know the bill has issues, but I truly want it to be good enough that it can lead to meaningful improvements in our broken health care system. I'm really hoping a stupid website doesn't determine the fate of this thing.

    What role does the individual mandate tax penalty play in all this? After 3 months, there will be a $95/month or 1% (whichever is greater) tax penalty for those that are uninsured. Surely that will help at least a small bit, if the money goes someplace useful. Plus, some young invincibles will be able to sign on through their parents' plan, if need be. It won't save a bombed website, but it might help mitigate some of the more moderate scenarios we may see.

  8. #98
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    What role does the individual mandate tax penalty play in all this? After 3 months, there will be a $95/month or 1% (whichever is greater) tax penalty for those that are uninsured. Surely that will help at least a small bit, if the money goes someplace useful. Plus, some young invincibles will be able to sign on through their parents' plan, if need be. It won't save a bombed website, but it might help mitigate some of the more moderate scenarios we may see.
    That's $95 (for adults, its less for children) a year, to be paid in monthly increments. As for where that money goes, I'm not sure; presumably it helps compensate insurance companies in case of a death spiral scenario, but I doubt that would be enough (the amount would eventually rise to $695/2.5% of income for adults in 2016).

  9. #99
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    What role does the individual mandate tax penalty play in all this? After 3 months, there will be a $95/month or 1% (whichever is greater) tax penalty for those that are uninsured. Surely that will help at least a small bit, if the money goes someplace useful. Plus, some young invincibles will be able to sign on through their parents' plan, if need be. It won't save a bombed website, but it might help mitigate some of the more moderate scenarios we may see.
    That's $95 (for adults, its less for children) a year, to be paid in monthly increments. As for where that money goes, I'm not sure; presumably it helps compensate insurance companies in case of a death spiral scenario, but I doubt that would be enough (the amount would eventually rise to $695/2.5% of income for adults in 2016).

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    The whole appeal of libertarianism, to the economically ignorant, is absolutely feeling based, its packed tightly with weapons grade emoting. I can understand it though, its a hell of a fantasy, I do the lottery myself, getting rich and not having to deal with bosses bullshit is something I dream about sometimes too, I dont depend on it though.
    Everything you said before this was a bundle of disconnected facts worthy of ignoring and completely irrelevant. however I agree with this last paragraph.

    Yes, to those who are ignorant of economics, libertarianism relies on emotion to sway the idiots. Unfortunately that's how it works. But a true libertarian, such as myself, understands the libertarian ideal, which ultimately is a lot of rational which can be conjured on the fly. I understand the basic formula, the game theory behind it all. Though I haven't really spent much time fleshing out the flaws other than recognizing the sheer experimental nature of it all.

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