User Tag List

First 7891011 Last

Results 81 to 90 of 155

  1. #81
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    isfp
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    8,586

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    We don't have big teeth and claws, yet we are the most powerful animal on the planet. This is because we can share our mind and become of one mind, for a while.

    For instance, I am sharing my mind with you now and you know what I am thinking. This can be used for group hunting or inventing the transistor.

    So inter-subjectivity is our great evolutionary advantage over the other animals.
    Oh, animals do this absolutely. Have you had a dog? Their empathy is more direct and core based than most humans. They also do collaborative hunting and use sounds to communicate information about their environment and feelings. Dophins for example, have names and these are constructed sonically based on their heritage. The sound of a specific dolphin's name is related to the sounds of its mother's name.

    I could relay endless anecdotes about dogs, and even cats, who can understand what I was feeling based on non-human linguistic cues. They can pick up on cues that even a spouse can miss. I've actually been amazed at how dull human empathy can be compared to animals. Also remember that dogs are pack-oriented and so even their personal identity has strong social connection. I've cried almost in front of humans who detected nothing, but you would be hard-pressed to find a canine who could miss such a signal. The difference in empathetic intelligence is nearly stunning to me.

    Edit @Beorn, I will respond to your post as well, but I'm having a little trouble understanding where you are coming from and so will need more time to think about it and how to respond in a way that is most relevant.

    ... I do think there is some kind of issue of "degree of existence" that speaks to intrinsic value, although I do appreciate the Janism view of respect for all life including insects. There might be a better way to phrase it, but it has to do with comprehension of existence, desire to maintain existence, or something along those lines that I find sacred and that I think there can be degree of, but also have a kind of intrinsic, infinite value. Perhaps there are different sizes of infinity, but I will have to think more to see if I can phrase it better. It's not about skill, but about degree of presence in reality.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  2. #82
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    4,804

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Inter-subjectivity also gives us poetry, so it's power and beauty.
    Does that stop at just the species or is there a reason why we shouldn't evaluate individuals on their power and beauty?

    Surely if evolution is the determiner...
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  3. #83
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    4,804

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Edit @Beorn, I will respond to your post as well, but I'm having a little trouble understanding where you are coming from and so will need more time to think about it and how to respond in a way that is most relevant.
    Feel free to ask additional questions for clarity. Also, feel free to explain your position more as I have little notion as to where you're coming from. Do you have a cohesive belief system about these issue or are you just playing around with theories? It's fine if it's the latter, but it would be better for me to know.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  4. #84
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    isfp
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    8,586

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Feel free to ask additional questions for clarity. Also, feel free to explain your position more as I have little notion as to where you're coming from. Do you have a cohesive belief system about these issue or are you just playing around with theories? It's fine if it's the latter, but it would be better for me to know.
    I hold the core value of reverence for life. I do not differentiate between humans and animals. I think that our high level of technology, society, and language are the result of humans forming a collective intelligence that other apes did not form and that it is somewhat anomalous. I think we are apes. We are animals. Assuming some sort of absolute superiority is arbitrary and based on completely subjective perception that is self-serving in nature. I find that sharp delineation to be dangerous to morality because of its ability to be dismissive of other life forms. Humans have committed atrocities towards animals that are staggering in terms of cruelty and immorality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Inter-subjectivity also gives us poetry, so it's power and beauty.
    Did you know that there is an anecdote from Jane Goodall in which she observed a mother ape pick a flower and place it next to her infant's face as if to imply they were connected or related. What might that relationship be if not beauty?

    I also remember taking my dear Sonnet dog to the vet one day before she passed away, and I glanced over at her as she was looking out the window with a look I can only describe as wonder as I drove her down the mountain. Her gaze was wistful and transfixed.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  5. #85
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    18,524
    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Have you had a dog?
    Yes, I have had a dog. And I am on good terms with the dogs and cats in my neighbourhood, even the possums.

    However dogs and cats and possums are successful parasites in that they gain more in reproduction than we do. And being such successful parasites, they give the impression of being our friends so we can project onto them our inter-subjectivity and treat them as members of our family, our human family.

    Parasites are enormously successful in the natural world, and can even alter the behaviour of the host.

    Hard though it is to believe, we are infested with parasites: dogs, cats and possums; hey, and we love it, our parasites are so clever they get us to love them, so they can reproduce.

  6. #86
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    18,524

    The Individual Animal and Biodiversity

    We don't need to value the life of an individual porpoise, but we should value the gene pool of porpoises.

    This is because we can replace an individual porpoise but extinction is forever.

    So we should work not to preserve the life of an individual animal, but to preserve biodiversity.

  7. #87
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    isfp
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    8,586

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Yes, I have had a dog. And I am on good terms with the dogs and cats in my neighbourhood, even the possums.

    However dogs and cats and possums are successful parasites in that they gain more in reproduction than we do. And being such successful parasites, they give the impression of being our friends so we can project onto them our inter-subjectivity and treat them as members of our family, our human family.

    Parasites are enormously successful in the natural world, and can even alter the behaviour of the host.

    Hard though it is to believe, we are infested with parasites: dogs, cats and possums; hey, and we love it, our parasites are so clever they get us to love them, so they can reproduce.
    It's not parasitic if it is mutually beneficial relationship. We have bacterias and organisms that live in our digestive systems without which it does not function properly. The bond between canines and humans has a long history and it is mutually beneficial.

    Edit: Also @Mole, I recommend spending more time observing your dog, perhaps even meditating together. I think there is a level you are not seeing. This isn't something I'm projecting, but observing. Consider the possibility that my observations are valid. If it helps for you to know, I second guess myself and every opinion and thought almost to death, so I have thoroughly considered the possibility of projection onto animals, and that viewpoint has not stood up over extended observation of animals for my experience. It is always worth considering every possibility.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  8. #88
    Society
    Guest

    Default

    if you 3 ( @fia @Mole @Beorn) don't mind me butting in: i'm disagreeing with everyone.

    yes, there is a continuum and there are degrees, but it's not intrinsic to them or to the universe or anything in between, rather: it is intrinsic to us - to our point of view as humans - we are able to experience different degrees of empathy towards different traits & animals.

    oh, and FYI - that intrinsic value we have - its to each other. for fuck sake, we don't need the universe to put crowns on our heads and tell us we're special, what does it matter what value we have to some higher entity wanking over us? it is the same exact principle of empathy applies the most to other humans because the exactly what human mirror neurons are best at mirroring. humans have empathic value to humans.
    and you know what? that's all we fucking need to make this work - we - humans - are creatures not only capable but at inclined towards empathy at our best, with mirror neurons that instinctively attempts to interpret and attempt to create a microcopy of the experience of others. by learning more about other species, we have now become exposed to larger source of experiences to mirrors, and are affected by empathy towards the state and conditions of their existence. they hold an empathic value to us - just like humans do to each other.

    so - to the extent that we are evolving as a society to a state where we might be able to afford too - why not? why not become egocentrically a tad less egoistic? even if the rest of earth's species don't benefit from it equally? when has that ever being relevant? we don't get to heal all the sick - let's not have hospitals? we don't get to give everyone degrees - throw out the education system? the fact you could do better doesn't nullify the benefit of whatever it is that you're doing. giving the species lucky enough to be within our empathy range a better chance in life isn't any less worthwhile simply because other species are out of range.

  9. #89
    meh Salomé's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    10,540

    Default

    Dolphins have more empathy than we do, therefore, we should really make them our Lords and Masters.
    Quick, someone write a new Creation myth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  10. #90
    meh Salomé's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    10,540

    Default

    Pug Empathy:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

Similar Threads

  1. [NT] Who are your best non-NT friends?
    By mbeerti in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 193
    Last Post: 10-13-2014, 12:09 AM
  2. Non-human persons
    By UniqueMixture in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 06-29-2012, 08:03 PM
  3. What are the most sought after personality types? and the ones you detest...
    By curiousel in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 98
    Last Post: 08-11-2010, 10:06 AM
  4. Are you a socially active person?
    By theadoor in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 92
    Last Post: 05-26-2010, 12:41 AM
  5. [ENFP] Are NFs overly non offensive ?
    By Virtual ghost in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 54
    Last Post: 10-13-2009, 05:04 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO