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  1. #71
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    You think personhood and the associated rights are based on ability?
    Yikes.
    What? How did I say that? Do you think that a virus and a human are equivalent in terms of personhood? My belief is that human beings have an infinite intrinsic value. I could possibly be convinced that this applies to any life form with self-awareness.

    Could you be convinced of the intrinsic value of life forms? Or do other life forms lack certain abilities to demonstrate value relative to human beings and personhood in your philosophy? You dismiss all non-humans from the possibility of rights because of what? Are you basing it on ability? Or do you think that if an animal demonstrates self-awareness that such an ability is irrelevant if they are not "human"?
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  2. #72
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    What? How did I say that? Do you think that a virus and a human are equivalent in terms of personhood? My belief is that human beings have an infinite intrinsic value. I could possibly be convinced that this applies to any life form with self-awareness.
    Ok, so the rights of humans are not based on ability, but the rights of other life forms is based on ability?



    Could you be convinced of the intrinsic value of life forms?
    Yes, I think all life forms have value, but I don't think value=rights. I deal with mistreatment of other animals based on the duties of humans towards other life forms.

    Or do other life forms lack certain abilities to demonstrate value relative to human beings and personhood in your philosophy?
    I don't think personhood and rights are based on value, but rather intrinsic in humanity.

    You dismiss all non-humans from the possibility of rights because of what? Are you basing it on ability? Or do you think that if an animal demonstrates self-awareness that such an ability is irrelevant if they are not "human"?
    The latter. Although that will affect the duty a human has toward the animal. I think humans have a duty to respect the various natures of the various animals based on the relationship of humans to animals.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  3. #73
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Ok, so the rights of humans are not based on ability, but the rights of other life forms is based on ability?




    Yes, I think all life forms have value, but I don't think value=rights. I deal with mistreatment of other animals based on the duties of humans towards other life forms.



    I don't think personhood and rights are based on value, but rather intrinsic in humanity.



    The latter. Although that will affect the duty a human has toward the animal. I think humans have a duty to respect the various natures of the various animals based on the relationship of humans to animals.
    But why place unique value on humans? What makes them different from animals as a special case? If it is not related to ability, what is it based on? Why are humans of value?

    Also, could you explain more about how value is determined based the "relationship of humans to animals". When humans relate in a violating manner to animals, is that a self-justifying process? Humans have committed cruelty and atrocity towards animals. How do we distinguish the morality in our relationship to animals? Is there a moral difference between killing a virus or an elephant? If both serve some type of utilitarian purpose for humans and humans value doing both?
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  4. #74
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    But why place unique value on humans?
    I'm not placing anything. It's intrinsic.

    What makes them different from animals as a special case? If it is not related to ability, what is it based on? Why are humans of value?
    Humans are made in God's image and specially endowed with inalienable rights.

    I can't remember what country you're from, but America and America's laws are entirely based on that notion:

    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."


    Is this a concession in the form of a question? That is, you didn't answer any of my questions about your own position so does this mean that you do think personhood and rights are linked to ability?

    Also, could you explain more about how value is determined based the "relationship of humans to animals".
    I never said value is determined by the relationship of humans to animals, but rather that the duties of humans to animals is based on a combination of the relationship and the nature of the animal. The value of an anima is in it's nature as a creature.

    When humans relate in a violating manner to animals, is that a self-justifying process?
    Violating what?

    Humans have committed cruelty and atrocity towards animals. How do we distinguish the morality in our relationship to animals? Is there a moral difference between killing a virus or an elephant?
    A virus represents a clear threat to a human's right to life so killing a virus is moral in almost every case I can think of because it's justified under self-defense. Killing an elephant in self defense would also be moral. In general I don't think merely killing an animal is immoral unless there are special circumstances that would make it irresponsible. Animals don't have a right to life. However, I think human's are stewards of animals and have a positive duty to care for them in many other facets. They have duty to make sure animals don't receive unnecessary pain, are treated in a cruel fashion, or risk becoming extinct.

    I'm also beginning to think human's have some sort of duty to find means of redeeming animals. That is to find ways of interacting with animals we typically see as pests in a way that respects the nature of the animal and utilizes it for human benefit. Permaculture is a good example of this where specific crops are grown for the consumption of moles and voles so that they don't eat the human crops, but actually help the human crops by simply behaving like moles and voles and turning the soil as they tunnel so water is then better distributed amongst the roots.

    If both serve some type of utilitarian purpose for humans and humans value doing both?
    Utility is typically the last thing I would consider. Other moral consideration would be ahead of that and trump utility.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  5. #75
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Why are humans of value?
    We are of value because as far as we know, we are the only inter-subjective animals in the universe. There may be inter-subjective animals in other galaxies, but we know nothing of them.

    And athough there are no other inter-subjective animals on Earth, we are related to every other living being on Earth for the last four and a half billion years - for we all share the same DNA.

    Bananas, for instance, are not inter-subjective but have exactly, precisely, with digital precision, the same DNA as you and I.

  6. #76
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    We are of value because as far as we know, we are the only inter-subjective animals in the universe. There may be inter-subjective animals in other galaxies, but we know nothing of them.

    And athough there are no other inter-subjective animals on Earth, we are related to every other living being on Earth for the last four and a half billion years - for we all share the same DNA.

    Bananas, for instance, are not inter-subjective but have exactly, precisely, with digital precision, the same DNA as you and I.
    Define intersubjective. I want to know what exactly you mean.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Define intersubjective. I want to know what exactly you mean.
    We don't have big teeth and claws, yet we are the most powerful animal on the planet. This is because we can share our mind and become of one mind, for a while.

    For instance, I am sharing my mind with you now and you know what I am thinking. This can be used for group hunting or inventing the transistor.

    So inter-subjectivity is our great evolutionary advantage over the other animals.

  8. #78
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    We don't have big teeth and claws, yet we are the most powerful animal on the planet. This is because we can share our mind and become of one mind, for a while.

    For instance, I am sharing my mind with you now and you know what I am thinking. This can be used for group hunting or inventing the transistor.

    So inter-subjectivity is our great evolutionary advantage over the other animals.
    So it's power that makes humans valuable?
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  9. #79
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    We don't have big teeth and claws, yet we are the most powerful animal on the planet. This is because we can share our mind and become of one mind, for a while.

    For instance, I am sharing my mind with you now and you know what I am thinking. This can be used for group hunting or inventing the transistor.

    So inter-subjectivity is our great evolutionary advantage over the other animals.
    So it's power that makes humans valuable?
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  10. #80
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    So it's power that makes humans valuable?
    Inter-subjectivity also gives us poetry, so it's power and beauty.

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