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  1. #61
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    It's simple economics. We don't extend legal rights to other species because we can't afford to extend them to everything right now and we consider other things higher priority. We have some wiggle room on how much we could invest in this (for instance, we can bring up dolphins), but we definitely cannot afford to encompass every species at this time.

    There isn't really an absolute moral reason to not extend those rights to other species. If everything, it's the opposite, if we could actually afford it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    You can't give anything rights. They are intrinsic. You can only enshrine them in law.
    Then it's blatantly obvious that what he meant by your terminology was to ask if we should enshrine their rights in laws.

    Incidentally, I think all rights are stuff we make up and not intrinsic in any way.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  2. #62
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    It's simple economics. We don't extend legal rights to other species because we can't afford to extend them to everything right now and we consider other things higher priority.
    That's not the reason.

    Then it's blatantly obvious that what he meant by your terminology was to ask if we should enshrine their rights in laws.
    It's not blatantly obvious at all. Just because your mind lacks the subtlety to discern the difference, doesn't mean everyone's does.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  3. #63
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    That's not the reason.
    It basically is. Beliefs to the contrary erode as the ease of offering such protection increases. This doesn't just apply to other animals, it even applies to different groups of people. Slavery is easy to end, for example, when your economy no longer needs it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    It's not blatantly obvious at all. Just because your mind lacks the subtlety to discern the difference, doesn't mean everyone's does.
    Your mistake was that you were not trying to answer the question the person was actually asking. I know the difference between the two things you are differentiating. That was not the point. The point was that his question obviously had nothing to do with the difference you illustrated. You deciding yo elaborate about your terms as you understand them rather than trying to figure out what he was getting at.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  4. #64
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    It basically is. Beliefs to the contrary erode as the ease of offering such protection increases. This doesn't just apply to other animals, it even applies to different groups of people. Slavery is easy to end, for example, when your economy no longer needs it.
    WTF? No economy *needs* slavery. You've got the whole thing back to front.

    Your mistake was that you were not trying to answer the question the person was actually asking. I know the difference between the two things you are differentiating. That was not the point. The point was that his question obviously had nothing to do with the difference you illustrated. You deciding yo elaborate about your terms as you understand them rather than trying to figure out what he was getting at.
    I answered the question I wanted to answer and made the point I wanted to make. I don't see why you feel the need to butt into someone else's conversation to tell them how to conduct it, anyway. Other than that that's what you always do. :yawn:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  5. #65
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    WTF? No economy *needs* slavery. You've got the whole thing back to front.
    Economies have needed slavery like ours needs fossil fuels. Understand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I answered the question I wanted to answer and made the point I wanted to make.
    That's not necessarily a very constructive way to respond to a question. That will usually either break down into quibbling or evasion. Not not answering the question the other person asked is to defeat the point in anyone asking you a question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I don't see why you feel the need to butt into someone else's conversation to tell them how to conduct it, anyway. Other than that that's what you always do. :yawn:
    You may want to notice that you are posting on a forum. You can PM Mal+ if you would like.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  6. #66
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Economies have needed slavery like ours needs fossil fuels. Understand?
    Nope. Economies have relied upon slavery. Words are important. Get them right.
    Or look like a racist asshole. Your choice.

    Go PM yourself and stop derailing the thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #67
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Nope. Economies have relied upon slavery. Words are important. Get them right.
    Or look like a racist asshole. Your choice.
    Actually, through much of history, civilizations that heavily used slavery did not do so on the basis of race. That was more a feature of the age of exploration.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  8. #68
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    I expect you'll respect the life of the next virus that gets a hold of you and not take medication?

    This is stupid.

    All humans are persons.

    All persons are humans.

    Simple.

    Animals, places, and other living things can be protected on other grounds.
    Everything exists on a continuum. Perhaps the term "person" is too beholden to humans, but if "person" is defined as "sentient being", then it should extend to all life as though on a continuum. The virus would not exist in the same place on the continuum as a dolphin. Reason would dictate that to be clearly evident.

    Realistically it would be more complex than a one-dimensional continuum, but instead would branch outward into a variety of dimensions based on different parameters of self-awareness.

    I'm all for breaking down our specie-centricity. Human have demonstrated amazing degrees of stupidity in their inability to perceive awareness in other living beings. It is encouraging to see that is starting to be challenged.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  9. #69
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    You can't give anything rights. They are intrinsic. You can only enshrine them in law.
    Dogs have personalities, do dogs have the same rights as humans?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #70
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Everything exists on a continuum. Perhaps the term "person" is too beholden to humans, but if "person" is defined as "sentient being", then it should extend to all life as though on a continuum. The virus would not exist in the same place on the continuum as a dolphin. Reason would dictate that to be clearly evident.

    Realistically it would be more complex than a one-dimensional continuum, but instead would branch outward into a variety of dimensions based on different parameters of self-awareness.

    I'm all for breaking down our specie-centricity. Human have demonstrated amazing degrees of stupidity in their inability to perceive awareness in other living beings. It is encouraging to see that is starting to be challenged.
    You think personhood and the associated rights are based on ability?
    Yikes.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

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