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  1. #11
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    I believe all life is the same. Humans aren't special. Apes aren't special. Dolphins aren't special. I think we should try to equally respect all kinds of life (and non-life)...
    This is true, except I would add, we are the most powerful animal on the planet because we are inter-subjective.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    What makes a 'person'?

    I'm not really sure about the concept of deriving entertainment from captured dolphins...is it obvious they don't want to be where they are?

    If they could consent (...could they?) would they?
    i think we should probably focus on resolving the language issue, and just... ask them.

    i'm not sure what happens if they say yes... would that mean they have to be paid a minimum wage in tuna?

  3. #13
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    While dolphins will obviously never be quite the same things as humans and should not be treated as such, can't see why they shouldn't be or couldn't be protected in their interaction with humans by some kind of legal rights.

    As for the word person, I think I may have been unaware of its specific significance? I've used the word people to refer to my cats. The word tends to come out of my mouth whenever talking about something I believe is sentient.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    That doesn't make any sense

    In order to live you're going to have to discriminate and in order to discriminate you necessarily must have a sense of superiority.
    In the history of humanity's moral development, we've had the "ever expanding circle" where the individuals we consider deserving of moral consideration have become more common and diverse as time goes on. Where do we try the line that stops the circle? When do we threaten our ability to act superior? Your point in and of itself could probably be used for the sake of any prejudice. It needs more specifications to get to the bottom line of this particular discussion.

    How about this? Our sense of superiority is over all things without a central nervous system.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  4. #14
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
    Wondering that as well. Arguments have been made for some of the psittacine family, too.
    Apes, possibly monkeys. Elephants. Dolphins. Parrots. Corvids. And if you really want to get out there, octopods.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  5. #15
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Crows, it has been proven, are even smarter than apes. Dig that.

    But to the OP, I am all for dolphins and other oceanic mammals being accorded some basic human rights.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    In the history of humanity's moral development, we've had the "ever expanding circle" where the individuals we consider deserving of moral consideration have become more common and diverse as time goes on.
    we have, but they didn't - we're talking about species that are still separated into very small social groups - would an individual of any specific group share the same globalist mentality to care about an individual from another? would dolphins in the red sea care about dolphins eaten by the japanese?

    reminds me of the old tv show "first contact", except with us being the aliens...

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
    Wondering that as well. Arguments have been made for some of the psittacine family, too.
    Aaaaaaand I learned a new word today!
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  8. #18
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Wed have to come up with a definition of "person", which isnt easy to come up with. We know that, as humans, we as individuals are people because we can hold the concept(I think therefore I am) and then we extend it to those who look like us(other humans, possibly apes). But isnt that contradictory? We base our personhood on the fact we can conceive of that personhood yet judge others based on appearance and not conception. I dont see why other highly sentient mammals couldnt partake in personhood, even if they look nothing like us.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    Wed have to come up with a definition of "person", which isnt easy to come up with. We know that, as humans, we as individuals are people because we can hold the concept(I think therefore I am) and then we extend it to those who look like us(other humans, possibly apes). But isnt that contradictory? We base our personhood on the fact we can conceive of that personhood yet judge others based on appearance and not conception. I dont see why other highly sentient mammals couldnt partake in personhood, even if they look nothing like us.
    I thought it was based on those apes being able to recognize themselves as individuals or something like that. Although how the researchers figured that out is unclear to me.
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  10. #20
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    I thought it was based on those apes being able to recognize themselves as individuals or something like that. Although how the researchers figured that out is unclear to me.
    Since they have similar brains than we do, probably. Then again brains is not consciousness, so Im not quiet sure either. Im guessing the apes can perform excercises that show they have a sense of individuality?

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